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Runner, I cant get anyware near that with my Peder 12ga choked .008 & .013. Fifty plus rounds over the last couple days using 46gr (= 63gr FF) & 1 1/8 oz #6 with every combo of .030" NCs with & w/o wonderwads and the best I can come up with is about 24" at 25yds. I've got some .120" cards(1/8")but havent used them because of the dificulty getting them past the choke. If you'r getting that kind of pattern out of a cyl bore gun I think I'll get mine bored out to cyl-cyl.
 
Lots of good info here! I have hunted waterfowl and pheasants out here in California with my Pedersoli 12 for the last several years. It has screw in chokes but I wish it didn't. The breech end of the choke tubes are a slightly larger diameter than the barrel tube creating a slight step down shoulder to push the wads through and no doubt shave and deform them a little in the critical seal area. I use an improved and modified choke. I am ashamed to admit I have never patterned the gun, but I use 70 gr measured pyrodex RS, a 1/8 inch card overpowder wad, a 1/2 inch cushion, 1 1/8 oz measured shot and an 11 guage circle fly overshot. The waterfowl and pheasants in Sutter Basin seem to fall like it's shooting pretty good. While my blindmates use only the econo 1 1/4 oz, 2 and 3/4 factory #4 steel 12 ga stuff, the Pedersoli gives up nothing to the modern guns. I do use large shot, usually #2 bismuth for ducks and geese, and #4 lead for the upland game. Maybe the bigger shot helps keep the pattern together.

I also played around at the rifle range. .690 lead balls loaded in winchester 1 1/4 oz red plastic shot wads, no overshot wad needed, over the same 70 grains puts both barrels consistantly into a pie plate sized group at 50 yards. The shots tend to wander wide at much after 50 yards. It does load hard like a sabot in a rifle. Kinda makes me want to give it a try for Elk in the Oregon Coast Rainforest, or maybe Whitetails in the Dixie Swamplands!
 
YOu can machine, or polish down the bottom edge of that screw in choke to meet the barrel and get rid of the ledge. It will improve your patterns. I would take the barrel to a gunsmith and ask him to machine or use his lathe to turn down the inside diameter of that choke tube to the diameter of your bore. A machine shop could also do this for you, but may not want to do any work on gun barrels. ( I tell them they are not working on a gun barrel: They are working on a $15.00 choke tube! Sometimes it works.)

You should also be able to order cylinder bore tubes for the gun and simply use them rather than the choke tubes you now have. I use #5 shot at 1 1/4 ox. in my 12 ga. for pheasants, and it knocks them out of the air out to a little further than 30 yards, with an open cylinder gun.
 
caplock said:
Runner, I cant get anyware near that with my Peder 12ga choked .008 & .013. Fifty plus rounds over the last couple days using 46gr (= 63gr FF) & 1 1/8 oz #6 with every combo of .030" NCs with & w/o wonderwads and the best I can come up with is about 24" at 25yds. I've got some .120" cards(1/8")but havent used them because of the dificulty getting them past the choke. If you'r getting that kind of pattern out of a cyl bore gun I think I'll get mine bored out to cyl-cyl.


Woops, that should have said 46gr 777 (=63gr FF)
 
Try substituting 4 Over Shot cards for the nitro card, and the wonderwad, and see if your patterns don't improve. And, the total width of a pattern is not as important as the number of pellets in the core pattern( 10 inches at 25 yards, 20 inches at 40 yds) and how they are dispersed in that core circle. As long as you are not using some kind of shot cup to protect your shot from rubbing flats on the outside pellets as they travel down the barrel, you are going to see pellets leave the core pattern and drop out as they slow down faster than the core of the shot column. The pellets you see at the fringes of that 25 yard pattern may not even make it to 40 yards!

So, spend less time worrying about the width of the pattern, and more on what's happening with the center of the pattern.
 
First off, my gun is not cylinder bore. I have short screw in choke tubes. In my gun, the full choke tube is pretty much useless since the other two will both pattern better than it does with the system I use.
These are my thoughts. They are not carved in stone, but they work for me. Any critisism or discussion of another system or idea is just my thoughts. Not arguing with how anyone else does things in any way. This is what works for me and what I see or have seen.
I don't use 777 in the shotgun. I use Pyrodex or real black. I have used 3f, but the gun patterns better with 2f. I suspect that the 777 is too fast to produce best patterns. 2f kicks less than 3f and patterns better. Unless you have ignition problems, that is pretty much all there is to say on powders.
I use a thick NitroCard wad that is right at 6mm thick, or pretty close to 1/4th. I don't nick it or drill holes in it. I load thru the choke.
I mostly do not use a cushion/lube wad at all. I load the shot right on top of the thick over powder card. If I do use a cushion/lube wad, I put a thin over shot wad down on top of it before adding the shot. With Pyrodex RS, I can shoot more than ten times and never swab. For some reason the cushion wad helps patterns when you shoot the very small shot sizes in my gun. Out hunting, the most I ever have to do is run a lubed patch down the bore after it is loaded a couple of times a day. With black I have to swab a little more often, but not much. I suspect that the heavy nitro card scrapes most fouling out as you load and shoot. On damp days, the gun needs to be swabbed well between shots if it may be a while before it gets fired again.
I use the thin commercial over shot cards. I have never had a problem with them in a single barrel gun. They are suspect for use in doubles because the shot load can creep under recoil from the other barrel. If you shoot a double, you need to check that amount of creep in both barrels by shooting the other barrel with the gun held loosely. Then check to make sure the load has shifted in the other barrel. It is just part of learning your gun, but it deserves mention. None of them move if you hold them tight to your shoulder and absorb the recoil usually. You have to let the gun jump when you fire it to check for movement. No shift is ok. Even a little becomes a problem if you shoot the right barrel 4 times and the left load shifts a little each time. You really should check the loaded barrel when you reload the other barrel every time because of this. This is also where nicking the edges shows it's problems. Part of what keeps that thin over shot card in place properly is the air seal creating a vaccum state if the card attempts to move foreward. If you nick them or poke holes in them, the load loses part of what held it still in the barrel in the first place.
My current gun likes a 3:4 loading best. That is the very top range/pattern compromise loading. It is hot enough to do business at 40 yards and patterns well enough to do it. 60:80 of number sixes is a pleasant load to shoot and it will handle most of what guns like mine do well. 90:120 hurts to shoot, but the turkeys hate it worse than I do!
I bought a shotsnake with three settings on how much shot it will throw. I can play at the lowest setting with 50 grains of powder, or go to the highest setting with 80 under it and do just about anything that the small light single barrel guns are good for.
Some guns show a marked preference for certain shot sizes. I can show you a 410 that is ok with sixes, but will completely destroy a rabbit at 30 yards using 5's. You have to pull off if you want to eat the rabbits you kill. You can pattern that gun with shot size. I have seen several such guns. If you are shooting smaller than 20 guage, you will often find that this is true for your gun.
Shotcups are a completely different thing altogether, but need to be discussed. CVA makes a shotcup that has no side splits. If you leave it that way, it makes a good 30 yard prefragmented slug, but isn't much good for anything else. It takes considerable experimenting, but once yoiu figure out how far to cut the sides to suit your gun, you can shoot pretty good patterns at longer ranges. They just plain are a waste for most purposes, but they shine for that little bit you might need for turkeys and such because they let you run a little hotter on the powder and keep your pattern. Standard wads are hit and miss like any other loading component. I use a thick nitro wad under the plastic wads, so they really don't benefit me enough to bother. I am experimenting with plastic cups for use with steel shot in barrels not designed for steel. They are not cut down the sides at all and are designed for modern magnum loads using steel shot. I am cutting wings on the bottom bevel to slow the cup down so it separates from the shot quicker. I can get a good 35 yard pattern, but it is still to tight closer in. The other use for modern wads is the Lyman slug designed to be loaded in a modern trap wad. I have screw in chokes and I am not supposed to shoot roundball thru them. The Lyman slug in a modern wad is supposed to be ok? Anyway, that option it there also. If I can get the ducks to cross at 30 yards this year, I am going to be eating duck!
There are volumes more to type, and there are several other folks here using systems that work for them. Have patience at the target board and use big sheets of paper so you can see what the various changes are doing. Most of all, slow down. 50 shots at the board is supposed to be something you were priviledged to be able to participate in! It isn't an imposition to have to shoot another 50 from where I stand! I know little about the target games, but I would expect that those folks shoot that much in a day. I had to bend my barrel three times and experiment for a while with this gun. I had a 20 I never did figure out! Wish I had it back with what I know now! Just slow down untuil you find what that one will and will not do. I am sure others will add more!
 
Runner, Thanks for such an informative post. I've wondered about the use of 777 in a shotgun. It must be a lot faster burning powder than the black is, causing more gasses to escape. I'll try some 2F. If the black helps I'll work with the wads.
Would it be advisable to ream the sharp edges if the muzzle to make loading thick (1/8in)cards easier? The gun has fixed chokes.
 
Yes, always crown the inside of the muzzle of a gun. Think twice before buying a lot of those thick Over Powder wads. It would be better for you, and your patterns if you use instead OverShot wafers, putting four of them over the powder, then your shot charge, and then two wafers over the shot. Put holes with an awl or needle in the outside of each wafer, but not at the edge, or so near it will break through, to let out the air that is otherwise trapped under the wafer as you try to load it. To keep powder gases and shot from escaping out the hole, just align the holes in different directions, 12, 3, 6,& 9 O'clock for the 4 cards on top of the powder, 12 and 6 o'clock for the two that go over the shot.

The lighter cards will stop in the air after leaving the muzzle and fall to the ground sooner than does the heavy card wad.

To lube the barrel, run a lubed cleaning patch down the barrel on a jag either when you load the OS cards on top of the shot, OR after the load is seated. Either way, you protect the barrel from rust in bad weather, while softening the fouling when the shot is fired.
 
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