My old Matchlock Fortress Gun

[earlwb]

Something like 30 some odd years ago, I bought this big matchlock fortress gun. I had hoped to be able to be able to shoot it some. But after I got it I found the bore to be really in bad rusted out shape and the barrel had been bent and straightened, but it left a slight kink in the barrel on the inside more than the outside. The stock is cracked from age more than anything but it could have been pieced together from more than one gun too.

The lock works really well actually. it is a basic lever setup. A small movement of the trigger plate causes the arm to quickly drop down towards the flash pan.

The gun appears to be around 80 caliber or larger. But with the rough shape of the bore it is hard to tell for sure. I have entertained the thought of seeing if I could make a new barrel for it or maybe find one that would work with it. Maybe I will get the gumption to have a go at it. I don't know.

Anyway, it is a super impressive monster, more than seven feet long. I think at the time that Century had imported it to sell as curios here in the USA.

I think my example came from Jaipur, their government armory at the time. They had released for export and sale a number of the big fortress guns. It was part of the Jaipur Old City Defense System. I gleaned this bit of history from another source. "Jaipur was first constructed in 1727 by Maharaja Sawai Jai Singh, ruled 1699-1744, who moved his capital to this new city from nearby Amber. Known as the "Pink City" for it's great beauty today it is home to almost 4 Million people. The current Maharaja is a Polo playing friend of Prince Charles, the Prince of Wales." Anyway, this may be one of those guns that were imported into the USA back in the 1980's.

For those who may not be familiar with these huge guns, they were called fortress guns at the time. They made large caliber guns with long barrels so they could lob big round ball bullets onto the enemy below the walls. The large guns allowed them to shoot farther than regular length muskets or rifles. The guns were too big to hold offhand so they rested the stock on the wall ramparts to aim and fire.

A number of countries used the guns as smoothbore or rifled guns. Some navies issued them to be used aboard ships too. They had a yoke setup so they could be fired from the ship at other ship'w crew. The British even issued some for use with artillery batteries to help keep the enemy troops at bay too. They made them in flintlock and percussion cap too.

The Chinese made big fortress guns too and they call them "Jingal" guns. The later ones used a large bolt action with multiple lugs and used custom made cartridges that were made in very large calibers.

During the American Revolution, George Washington had some at his disposal and he claimed in a letter that the soldiers using them could hit a pie plate at 600 yards.
more information here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_gun
and http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/01/the-wall-guns-some-epically-large-rifles-2550934.html

 

[Gene L]

Washington may have said it, but no smoothbore is capable of hitting a pie plate at 600 yards, or even probably 60 yards.

 

[earlwb]

Yes I can agree. But there is evidence that the wall/fortress guns were rifled. Thus firing the large caliber heavy ball bullet may have been capable of hitting a man way out there.

ref http://www.history.army.mil/news/2013/130325a_amusettes.html

 

[earlwb]

You know in thinking about it. I don't think it was George Washington who said it. A Wikipedia article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_gun ) says that tests had shown that the wall guns could hit a sheet of paper at 600 yards. But since General Charles Lee was quoted as to saying when he wrote a letter from Williamsburg in 1776: "I am likewise furnishing myself with four-ounced rifle-amusettes, which will carry an infernal distance; the two-ounced hit a half sheet of paper 500 yards distance." It may have been him that said it. But at the time way back then with the war of Independence happening, many people were over exaggerating things in an attempt to discourage or demoralize the British.

Then I had the thought as to what was the dimensions for paper in the times around 1776. From what I gather a sheet of writing paper could vary quite a bit. But it seems it could be 11x21 inches or maybe 14x21 inches in size. It could be cut or folded into a smaller size too. Also paper was made in larger size sheets too. But way back then, they were not using 8.5x11 inch size paper like we use today.

 

[spudnut]

Washington may have said it, but no smoothbore is capable of hitting a pie plate at 600 yards, or even probably 60 yards.

I'll take that bet

 

[Commodore Swab]

Hitting a pie plate at that distance is easy with a smooth bore. You just have to put enough pie plates down range. Now while I can't guarantee you will hit the one you are aiming at, hitting 1 shouldn't be too hard.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Cool!....What's the bore diameter?

 

[earlwb]

My fortress gun seems to have a bore of around 80 to 90 caliber. Now since it is in pretty rough shape it really could be a 1 inch bore though. But other wall guns usually had 1 inch bores with some going to 1.25 inch and even 1.5 inch bores.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Earl.
Nice looking Wall Gun !! The large ones used by Infantry were often called a Karol. It's hard to believe these Torador matchlocks were still in use with the Natives and irregular troops all the way up till the 1880's. I believe the longest wall gun known to exist today is about 9 feet long. Your's is the largest I've ever seen. The fact that these were used virtually unchanged for some 300+ years, is probably the reason there are so many Toradors available today. It's also the reason it is so difficult, and often impossible to date these guns.
By coincidence, the barrel for my Torador is at Bobby Hoyt's shop scheduled to be worked on this month. (He has been recovering from knee surgery).
While the barrel on mine is in very good shape, I want to get it in safe firing condition. And there will be a couple of options I will discuss with him.
While there is much information about these guns, there is virtually no information about the reason(s) for the unusual bore design. There is a YouTube Video titled: Mughal Matchlock which does discuss the barrel, but not in great enough detail.
From the muzzle end, it goes from nominal bore size down to about 4" from the breech, where there is a slight constriction. This is where the ball would sit. From the constriction, it tapers to a narrow section for about 1-1.5", then opens up to a larger than bore size powder chamber at the breech. Very similar to the photo here. And would hold about 180-grains of FFG. :shocked2: Your Wall Gun would probably hold much more. Of course, I would not shoot a barrel with this configuration, viewing it as more of a bore obstruction. But every Torador barrel I've investigated is made this way. They were made on a mandrel, using a complicated and labor intensive process. There are a couple of therories for this. But I won't go into it now.
Also, the breech plugs are not threaded, but forge-welded in place. And done very robustly. I know this because I drilled out the plug in mine and can see how it was made. But I will have Bobby drill out the constricted and tapered area to nominal bore size, and then decide what to do with the breech area.
Anyway, the "kink" in your barrel may very well be that. But it may also be the constricted area if it is about 4" from the breech. Some of these barrels were in fact made from two sections. The breech walls are super thick.
I can offer some more information if you are interested. Again, nice Wall Gun. They are difficult to locate in that size.
Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[earlwb]

Thanks for the information. The kink the barrel on mine is about halfway down the barrel. You don't really notice it from the outside, until you run a jag down the bore and it hangs up on the dented inside where the kink is. Then when you look at the outside of the barrel there, you can see the slight dent or depression. Since bore is really rough, it is hard to say if it has the restriction or taper down at the breech end.

I had the idea that maybe many years ago, the gun was involved in a battle with the British or something. It got blown off the fortress ramparts and the barrel was bent. Someone tried to straighten it and the job failed. So they just left it like that. Then many years later someone saw the barrel as looking good and used assemble a gun for export sale, they didn't notice or didn't care about whether it was shootable or not. But we will never know the provenance of it though. But it was a interesting idea I had at the time.

I think to make it a shooter, one would have to bore out the barrel and line it or actually find another barrel or make one. I have entertained the thought of making a new barrel for it though.

I think there is someone who made a number of new replica parts for wall guns. I have thought about whether one of his barrels would fit well enough to work with mine or not. But I don't know if they still make them or have the parts. Of course it might be more practical just to buy all the parts from him and make a new replica wall gun though.

Anyway, my wall gun is likely destined to remain a curio piece to put up on the wall. It is difficult to move around any as it being so long, it is easy to go oops, and put divots in the ceiling. My wife tends to get upset about it.

 

[earlwb]

When you mention the old hammer forged method, using a mandrel, to make the barrels, it jogged my memory in that they do that today with barrels too. Of course they use big industrial presses today instead of a bunch of guys hammering away on it in a workshop.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Earl.
OK. It does indeed sound like the barrel on your's was damaged. Likely during some battle. But it's still a nice collectors piece in a hard to find wall gun size.
Here are some pics of the before and after drilling out the breech plug. Another curiosity is that the Indian natives did not trust threaded breech plugs. The opposite of what we know. There is even evidence of them taking European barrels and removing the threaded plug and installing a forge-welded plug. :idunno: I've seen one example of this.
If the bore on my barrel can be drilled out and burnished to nominal bore size from muzzle to breach end, then I can just have a new threaded breech plug made and installed. The barrel walls are so thick, that I would not have a problem shooting the barrel with normal loads of black powder. However, after this process, if the breech end (powder chamber) is still larger than bore size, I'll have to have him make a liner. And hope (prey) that he can make a liner with a swamped type O.D. to accomodate the breech and vent hole/pan, which can't be altered. We'll see.........
Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[earlwb]

Thanks for the information. You did nicely on that barrel breechplug removal. Your barrel looks pretty good as compared to mine.

Yes I see now how they did your barrel. I can understand them not trusting threaded breach plugs at the time. Welding the breech plug, it sort of makes sense. It makes one wonder if they could have made high quality taps and dies at the time or not. Welding would have been easier than making a tap and die.

I have thought of boring out the barrel and putting in a liner. But heck, that needs one heck of a long lathe bed to do so. Not many gunsmiths would be able to do it. Of course it would need a long lathe to make a new barrel too.

I have been looking at this website off and on. I need to find out if they still have the parts or not. Of course I was waiting until I had the money for it all though. Usually by the time I get the money to buy something they quit making it. http://www.therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/english_arms/(727).htm
I think it might be the way to go, is to use their barrel or all of the parts to make a new replica wall gun.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Earl.
Well, the LEAST expensive way would be to have your existing barrel sent to Bobby Hoyt and have it drilled out and a steel liner installed. BUT!! Since he is supposed to start working on my barrel this month, I would wait to hear back from me as to what he says, since the interior breach design of your barrel is probably similar to mine. I'll let you know. If my memory serves me, Bobby mentioned that he can make rifled liners up to 72", and smooth bore liners "any" length. I'll ask him what "any" really means. :haha: This would also assume the stock on your gun is in good enough condition for firing.
The MOST expensive way would be to have a new barrel duplicated from your original. And the added cost of having the pan made and welded on. Not really a good idea.
IMHO that British Wall Gun kit from TRS would be the best way to go. Especially if your tastes run more toward European. But I would make sure that ALL the parts are IN STOCK. Otherwise, you will have to be prepared for a long wait. Also, you want to order the Kit with a FINISHED lock.The most likely item that will be delayed is the barrel.
I have a TRS Kit for #685 Swedish Snaplock. I have all the parts except the barrel. I ordered the Coleraine barrel from TOTW so they could do the extra gunsmithing work on the barrel. Been 15 months now and still no barrel. But, I just noticed they are expecting the barrel in 90 dys. So basically, it will be 1.5 years to receive the finished barrel. So it will likely be similar with the Wall Gun barrel. But, if you really want a wall gun to shoot, that would likely be the best route.
Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[earlwb]

That is a good idea. I'll wait and see how your barrel turns out. Thanks for the information.

 

[earlwb]

You know. I wonder what happened to the other wall guns from the batch that I bought mine from. I haven't seen anyone else talking about them or anything.

At the time I remember the small advertisement in Shotgun news saying that they simply had a number of them to sell. So I placed an order and it was delivered in about four weeks. I remember the UPS guy wondering what the heck it was. I told him it was some radio antenna parts. They tended to get all freaked out if you tell them gun parts or something.

 

[spudnut]

Hitting a pie plate at that distance is easy with a smooth bore. You just have to put enough pie plates down range. Now while I can't guarantee you will hit the one you are aiming at, hitting 1 shouldn't be too hard.

Theres a lot of smoothbore shooters in my area and we shoot at clangers smaller than apie plate at over 60 yards with plenty of hits,One is about as big as an ear of corn at 80 yards,Not hit every time but Ive hit it several times

 

[cable]

60 yards seems reasonable but the original quote said 600 yards , I think ??

 

[earlwb]

It may be quite possible to shoot 600 yards with a wall or fortress gun. During the Revolutionary War the guns were rifled. So they could have some really good accuracy then. The large heavy one inch round ball would carry quite a distance too.

More modern are the guys with the 12 gauge slug guns. They are regularly hitting 4 inch targets at 300 yards or better. Smoothbore no rifling. But they are using the latest in technology slugs though.

 

[Gene L]

What fortresses in America were defended by fortress guns? Very few fortresses in N. America during the Revolution. West Point? This is a bit of history that's been overlooked.