Need help selecting the right kit for replica

[Palepainter]

Hello fellow enthusiasts. My name is Mike. I live in Colorado and am a big black powder enthusiast. I currently still own a 45 CVA I built when I was twelve as well as a T/C Hawken I built when I was 16. I also own a 1858 New Army 44 as a Concealed Carry....Just kidding.

I need some recommendations on a kit. I am trying to replicate a gun originally owned my a distant relative. My grandfather x6, who fought in the American Revolution, owned this gun. His name was John Learn. He was from Westmoreland County, more specifically, Tannersville, PA. One of my distant relatives still owns the gun and provided me with some pictures to enable me to create a replica in dedication to my family's heritage. I am hoping to get some better pictures in the very near future so I can replicate the carvings and engravings.

Any history on the maker or identity of the gun would be greatly appreciated. My goal is to find a kit that will get me close enough to get started. I look forward to being an active participant in the community. Thank you for your consideration and assistance.

Here it is.

 

[illuveatar]

The gun your ancestor used in the Revolutionary war would have been a flintlock. This gun looks like it started as a flintlock and was converted to percussion, this would have been done sometime after the 1830s (I think the percussion cap was introduced in 1839). I'm certainly no expert when it comes to original guns but it appears to be a post-Revolutionary longarm. I could cite a few points of architecture but perhaps some of the more knowledgeable folks here could better explain. (I'm still a greenhorn when it comes to this stuff and shouldn't be representing the forum on issues like this)

Don't be discouraged, it may still have been owned by the same grandfather who fought in the war, but the gun itself probably wasn't built until a little while after.

I would love to be able to make a replica of one of my own ancestors guns. That's a really unique opportunity you have there, good luck :thumbsup:

 

[Palepainter]

Oh ya, not discouraged. I did not say this was the gun he used in the war. But the thing is, he was killed in an indian raid during the 1790's. So if this is indeed a 1830 era gun, then my relatives have been misinformed. That is why I came here. :bow:

 

[illuveatar]

I think it was definitely built before the 1830s, maybe it was made before 1790 ? I'm curious to find out myself. Someone else will chime in, might take a day or so but there are folks here that have spent years looking at originals.

If you go to trackofthewolf.com you will find many kits and also individual gun parts for sale. I suggest that you take your time and purchase the pieces individually, to make sure you get exactly what you're looking for. Wait for the gurus to reply about what type of original lock it would have had. I have no idea what school this one came from but you may be able to find an appropriate precarved stock for it which would save you time.

Also, I would consider buying The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle by Dixon et al. This will be more than just a kit build and you're likely to spend a lot of time on it but I hope you continue on, it'll be worth it.

 

[Palepainter]

Thanks. It will be a cool opportunity to recreate this gun. The relative who owns it will be getting me better pics of the engravings and carvings. It will take some time, but that's fine.

I just ordered the catalog. I appreciate the help!!

 

[Zonie]

Palepainter: Welcome to the Forum.

Because you are asking about a "kit" to try to duplicate this rifle I'm moving this topic to the Gun Builders Bench.

I'm sure you will get a lot of suggestions there.

The "Gun Builders Bench" might sound intimidating but it is designed to help anyone, regardless of their experience with building guns ranging from the factory pre made guns that beginners often build up thru the custom made guns which are carved out of a blank of wood.

I'll leave a pointer here so you can find your topic easily.

 

[Zonie]

Now that we are in the right place I'll make some preliminary observations and comments.

Even if your rifle had a flintlock on it, it is too late of a style for a Revolutionary era rifle.
It could have been made in the 1790's though.

You will have to decide if you want to create a close duplicate with a percussion lock like this gun has or if you want to use a flintlock like the rifle probably was originally made with.

As for wood, I think there are several "pre carved" "kits" that may work but don't expect to find one that looks exactly like your guns shape.
There won't be any.

Rather, you need to look for a pre-carve that has more than enough wood on the butt.
It can be wider and taller and drop more below the barrel but it must have wood wherever your existing gun has wood.
You can always rasp/file/sand away the existing wood but trying to put wood onto the stock is something reserved for the experts.

While your looking at the different "pre-carved" stock shapes keep in mind that many of them will come already inlet for a lock. This is usually a "Siler" lock and while these are excellent locks they are the wrong shape for your gun.

Companies like Pecatonica River will gladly supply a stock blank that has the barrel channel and ramrod hole pre cut and they will leave the lock panel solid so that you can install the correctly shaped lock.

Here is a link to Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply, an excellent company to do business with. (They also have some of the best prices).
http://www.longrifles-pr.com/

While your doing research use the following link (that gets you to topic in the Gun Builders Index at the top of the page).
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/tutorials/brooks/Brooks1.html

This Tutorial was written by one of our members, Mike Brooks, and it fully explains the whats, hows and whys of building a rifle.

He is a highly regarded (if I may use the term) Master gun-builder.

I highly recommend that you "book mark" it in your browser as you should read it from start to finish several times. After you start building you will also want fast access to it.

Oh. I should warn you that your new gun will be costly.
A person can easily sink over $600 just buying the rough parts.
If this is too costly it is better to realize it now than later.

Have fun. :thumbsup:

 

[rich pierce]

Replicating an original requires a skilled gunsmith who can make or modify furniture (buttplate, guard, sideplate, patchbox, thimbles) and modify a lock. Making a patchbox from scratch alone is not a trivial matter. I find it hard to modify a precarved stock significantly as it pushes the builder toward the basic design laid out. Working from a blank is much more flexible.

 

[Vaino]

Don't have any idea where it might have been built, but seeing the buttstock is similar to a Lehigh, I'd start w/ a precarve copied from that area. You'd come very close. Similar buttplates and trigger guards are also available. Good luck......Fred

 

[bioprof]

I agree with Fleto that the stock profile is close to a Lehigh County, but it's hard to tell from the picture if the bottom of the butt has as much curve as a Lehigh, although It would be easy to straighten it out the bottom from a precarve if necessary.

It kind of reminds me of a Maryland Rifle such as an Armstrong too, but it doesn't look like yours has as much drop.

I also agree with Zonie on getting a stock cut without the lock inlet so that you can install the correct one. The lock is an important component, and to install the wrong one would completely throw off the look.

By the way, that's a beautiful rifle and well worth the effort to create a replica. Could we see a picture of the other side of the stock, please???

 

[longcruise]

Is there, by chance, a makers name engraved in the top flat of the barrel?

 

[jimc2]

The tannersville in Pa. that I know of is in Monroe county in eastern Pa

 

[Palepainter]

Thanks for the all the information guys. That is a big help. As far as the skill level, I am pretty confident I can take on some challenge as I build electric and acoustic guitars for a living. The cost is roughly what I have expected.

Jim C, Thanks for that correction on Tannersville.

I emailed a few kit suppliers the photos as well in hopes of finding some of the pieces that would be needed to make the proper corrections.

I do not have the gun, nor have I seen in in person. I am fortunate enough to have access to the photos I have received. I have contacted the present owner for more shots and hope to speak to them soon for more details. Hopefully all this will narrow the search.

Thanks again for the help!

 

[Capt. Fred]

If you could get your relatives to make a full size pattern outline of the gun from the butt to just past the entry pipe, you could then make copies and send them off to folks to see who has something that would work.


Dave Keck at Knob Mountain has a ton of patterns and may be able to hook you up.

You are also going to want a ton of dimensions off of the original. Length, width, height of everything in every spot they can think of to measure. You won't get everything you'll need, but you should be able to extrapolate the rest from what you do get. It would be ideal to have it on your bench while you work.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Perhaps an Berks County influenced Upper Susquehanna Rifle.

I see more Berks County influence than Lehigh....the toe line appears straighter.

Impossible to tell without better pictures and measurements but it looks too light to be an earlier Berks piece.

The closest precarve I see to this Knob Mountains Joe Long. Track of the Wolf has a Joe Long also but Knob Mountain's is a better start. No lock inlet, inlet for any barrel and forestock left square.

If you are e-mailing suppliers anyway, make sure to contact them also at:
http://knobmountainmuzzleloading.com/index.html

Good luck and keep us posted. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Palepainter]

Wow, would I love to have it on hand. I do not know if they would be willing to part with it for such a luxury. I am waiting to hear back on a few emails I have sent out through our family geneology website.

The Mike Brooks link will be an invaluable asset. I have all the tools already, fortunately. This is going to be an exciting challenge!

 

[Palepainter]

I just heard from the present owner of the gun and expect some more photos in the near future. Weeeee

I am going to go with the suggestion of finding a stock blank that is just machined for the barrel and ramrod. Thanks again for all the great advice.

 

[illuveatar]

In addition to the measurements you should have them take an absurd amount of pictures of the gun from every angle twice. Changing the position of the light source between similar shots would help expose slight contours.

Also if they could place a ruler next to the gun in each shot it would help you to guesstimate any dimensions they failed to provide. Ideally they could place the gun over a large sheet of grid paper with evenly spaced horizontal and vertical lines.

If you're too far away to meet physically I would mail a flash drive and have them fill it up with pics and stats and have them mail it back. This would bypass any online media exchange which could restrict the size and number of pictures possible.

I hope you can get the info you need from your distant relatives to make this project a success.

I don't know if you'll be able to find a ramrod inlet pipe like the one on that gun. You may have to get crafty and make some of your own brass parts. And then you'll need to get them engraved too.

Cheers

 

[kaintuck]

no toe plate???!! :hmm:

nice project!!!!!!!!

 

[jdkerstetter]

no toe plate???!! :hmm:

nice project!!!!!!!!

There's deffinitely a toe plate. Long rectangular with a whole for a vent pick or feather. The hole maybe fake as many later guns were, esp. on Ohio rifles...if so it indicates it was not originaly flint.

Enjoy, J.D.