Need help selecting the right kit for replica

[Robby]

Palepainter, I like the lines and the piece of wood used on your family gun!!! Lots of good advise given. Definitely a worthwhile, and fun project to take on. I'd send a picture to whomever you get the stock from and see if they can find something close in figure.
It looks to me like it was a flintlock originally, but what is that big, round, bolster looking thing on the plate, below and in front of the drum? Other than the trigger guard, which looks kind of Breksy, it does have a Lehigh look about it.
Robby

 

[Palepainter]

I was just informed that the gun was made and marked Hellertown, PA. The present owner is an older gentleman. He is not computer savvy. It could be months before I get more pictures unfortunately.

I will see what I can do about sending him a camera. :grin:

 

[Dane]

Without actual dimensions, I'd say it was a child's/young mans gun.
My suggestion, would be to draw out your own profile, get a barrel of the same dimensions, find a Flintlock of the same basic style, and make your own.
I don't believe you're going to find any "Kit" that is going to come close to the profile of that stock. Any one that you might find, would take so much adjustment, that it would actually be easier to start from scratch.
My opinion only!!
Hope that helps.

 

[freaswh]

There is a Hellertown in the Lehigh Valley region of PA which fits with the general lines of the gun. I suspect that is a separate plate behind the entry thimble ... probably a ramrod hole gone astray.

 

[Palepainter]

That is about all I can do at this point in time. I have been in contact with a few stock manufacturers that will get me close enough. I need a bigger caliber than a 45 to hunt with as well, so perfect documentation isn't going to happen there either.

 

[Palepainter]

There is a Hellertown in the Lehigh Valley region of PA which fits with the general lines of the gun. I suspect that is a separate plate behind the entry thimble ... probably a ramrod hole gone astray.

More than likely. If I were to drill out the ram rod hole, I would naturally be able to duplicate that pretty easily.

 

[jdkerstetter]

You're not alone there!!! :rotf:

And thanks, I needed that!!! :rotf:

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Herb]

Mike-I have done what you want to do. I restored a Jacob Wigle rifle (Westmoreland Co., PA) that was found in a dry cave Indian burial near Vernal, Utah in the 1920's. It was originally a flintlock, probably built about 1820. The barrel is now 35.5" long, slightly tapered. But it was built with a 46" barrel, which I finally figured out on my third copy of it. That was the style in Westmoreland County back then. Your butt plate is probably Track of the Wolf's BP-MA-43-B, shown on my copies below. The patch box you will have to saw out and make the five-knuckle hinge, easy to do. The trigger guard will probably be Track's TG-MD-1-B. What you might think is a wear plate covering a misdrilled ramrod hole is original to the rifle. You can select rod pipes from Track's catalog. The barrel may well have been cut off and might have been up to 46" long. Who knows what the flintlock might have been. You just have to select one that seems to fit. Here is the rifle after I cleaned it up for the museum here.

Notice on the Westmoreland County rifle the sideplates extend past the hinge, which has 7 knuckles. This has a toeplate release to spring the latch, seen below the hinge. Jacob's brass work was

 

[Herb]

Mike-I have done what you want to do. I restored a Jacob Wigle rifle (Westmoreland Co., PA) that was found in a dry cave Indian burial near Vernal, Utah in the 1920's. It was originally a flintlock, probably built about 1820. The barrel is now 35.5" long, slightly tapered. But it was built with a 46" barrel, which I finally figured out on my third copy of it. That was the style in Westmoreland County back then. Your butt plate is probably Track of the Wolf's BP-MA-43-B, shown on my copies below. The patch box you will have to saw out and make the five-knuckle hinge, easy to do. The trigger guard will probably be Track's TG-MD-1-B. What you might think is a wear plate covering a misdrilled ramrod hole is original to the rifle, the fashion then. You can select rod pipes from Track's catalog. The barrel may well have been cut off and might have been up to 46" long. Who knows what the flintlock might have been. You just have to select one that seems to fit. Here is the rifle after I cleaned it up for the museum here.

Notice on the Westmoreland County rifle the sideplates extend past the hinge, which has 7 knuckles. This has a toe-line release to spring the latch, seen below the hinge. Jacob's brass work was beautiful. Here is my copy below the original, showing the trigger guard I referenced above.

I built three copies of the rifle. The maple one is the first, which I sold to Jacob's GGGgrandson in Ashland Co., Ohio. I also traveled to Jacob's Creek, PA in Westmoreland Co. to research him. The walnut copy is a .50 caliber for my cousin's husband, who is a Weigle. The third copy I built with a 15/16" by 44" barrel, and in doing that discovered from the pipe spacing that the original barrel was 46 inches long.

I could not tell from the inletting what the original lock had been, so I used a Jacob Dickert lock on the first copy, a Davis Early Contract lock on the walnut one and a Durrs Egg on the last one. The original rifle was about .38 to .40 caliber, muzzle too rusted to be certain. Both barrels I made 38" long, the first one .40 caliber and the second one .50 caliber. The third one is .40 caliber and 44" long. You will have to make the single trigger. You will need accurate tracings of the stock to duplicate it. It will probably have a short length of pull, Wigle's is 12.5 inches, with a lot of drop. If I can help you with any advice, feel free to ask.

 

[Zonie]

The idea of buying an oversize pre-carve was used in building this Franklin County (Pa) gun.

No where will anyone find a Franklin Co. pre-carve.
They aren't made by anyone.

By using photos of the original and removing the wood from a pre-carve that wasn't correct for the Franklin architecture I ended up with a pretty close recreation of the gun in the photos I used for reference.

(No, it is not a Bedford.
The Bedfords are slender, almost fragile looking. This gun is similar but much stockier and uses a regular Germanic lock rather than the specialized thin Bedford locks.).

My inlays and carvings do not replicate the original but many of the other features are very close.

In any case, by using a pre-carved stock I did not have to cut the barrel channel or drill the ramrod hole and the general proportions were already established.

Dick Greensides at Pecatonica River Longrifle also was able to supply me with a very nice piece of his #3 grade Curly Maple at a good price.

 

[Palepainter]

Herb,
That was a boatload of specific information that will make the time on the phone much shorter. I have made a list at Pecatonica for a build on a blank with just the barrel and ramrod work done.
I appreciate all the pointers on the lock and other parts to help get the build close. Can't thank you guys enough.

 

[Palepainter]

Beautiful gun Zonie. It is great to see other artists work for inspiration!!! Were you able to get what you wanted off of the available photos then?

I lived in Tempe for years, ran my business off of University and McClintock for quite some time too. I do not miss the heat, but kind of miss the hardwood connections I had down there for my guitar building.

Thanks for sharing!!!

 

[Zonie]

Yes but remember that unlike you I was not trying to duplicate the exact gun in the photos.

The lock, patchbox, trigger guard are all very similar to the photographs gun (although I left off the engraving because poor engraving is worse than none at all).

In addition to my other suggestions I heartily suggest that you spend a few dollars and buy one of the Track of the Wolf Catalogs.

Not only will you see hundreds of parts that are available but the photos of the parts are scaled to be full size.

This will allow you to choose parts that come closest to the ones on the original gun.
It will also let you know if the part could be modified to duplicate the original.

In addition to the excellent photos that often show both sides of the locks (important if you plan on reshaping a lock) there is a large amount of information that explains many things about the parts they are selling.

Track of the Wolf is an excellent company to buy from with their reasonable prices and fast deliveries.

Oh, there are some serious rumors that their stocks are produced by Pecatonica River and to the best of my knowledge these rumors have never been repudiated.

 

[bud in pa]

Palepainter: Hellertown is just south of Bethlehem, PA. There is a historical marker in Tannersville, Monroe county. I do beleive that it mentions an Indian raid on Learn's tavern,next time I get down that way I'll check it out for you.

 

[Palepainter]

Hey Bud,
That would be great to see that marker. I will do some more research. The funny thing is, I lived in East Stroudsburg and Marshalls Creek for a few years. I never knew what I know now about my family's history. I will get back there very soon on one of my trips to NYC.

Here is a pic of one marker that I am aware of. It is only appropriate that some of my ancestors owned a tavern. :rotf:

:thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Herb]

When I built my copies of the Wigle rifle, there are no precarves that fit it. The wrist is too short and the heel drop too much. I took my first Wigle copy to Pecatonica and their stocks all had wrists too long to work. I had Jack Garner at TVM saw my stocks for me and they worked very well. Getting a blank with the barrel inletted and the ramrod hole drilled would be a big help, with enough wood to saw the buttstock to shape and inlet your own lock. Pecatonica can do this for you, I suppose.

 

[Palepainter]

I should be able to cut the blank Herb. That will probably be the easiest thing during the build for me. My shop is quite equipped with equipment for my guitar building. I have been thinking alot about starting completely from scratch. I am considering a jig for my overarm pin rounter to do the inletting for the barrel and ramrod channel. It really comes down to being able to find decent wood here locally.

 

[Herb]

Mike, I have been to Stroudsburg. Went there to a conference of the National Association for Conservation Information or some such just as I got my second degree from the U. of Minnesota in 1959, looking for a job. Here is a photo of my third Wigle rifle with some others, not mine, at a recent shoot.

 

[Palepainter]

That is a beautiful collection there Herb. I would be quite proud to have any of them.

 

[msuspartan]

Gentleman,
I would just like to say that over the couple of years of being a member here, that it warms my heart and soul of the kind and gracious help that people on this forum give on a daily basis.

This is what America was built on and to see this continues my faith and appreciation of what we all accomplish here.

Thank you again, Gentlemen. Here is a respectful and hearty tip of the hat for your generousity. :hatsoff:

Cheers, DonK