Need help with sloppy wedge

[Dude]

The gun - Pietta 1860 army 44. The poor thing has gone through hell and back, and of course the previous owner didn't disclose the troubles and how it got there. He got it new (it's a 2013) and just decided to defarb it. I suspect the defarbing had something to do with replacing the barrel (who knows why) with one that didn't fit right. One of the issues, and the one I'm now dealing with, is a narrow wedge. The end shake was something like .017", so after making the arbor shorter and re-mating the barrel/frame lug junction, the wedge is sloppy. It needs to be wider.

What have you guys done in a similar situation?

I don't know if it's possible to purchase wider wedges - if so, where? I've thought of gas welding one side and machining (file) to the proper thickness.

I've heard of machining tool steel to make a new one.

Are there other solutions? Thanks for your help!

 

[Gee Dog]

VTI GunParts for a new wedge.
Don’t know if a new one would be wider than the one you have. It’ll be brand new though.

 

[Tyler L]

The other option is to drill and tap the end of the arbor 1/4-28* for a flat-tipped set screw. This allows you to fine tune how far the wedge goes in. It's important that the hole be well centered on the arbor. I had to do this on my Uberti 1860 or the wedge would bottom out without tightening up.

*A small turn makes a big difference, so if you can source a 1/4-32 tap and set screw that would be even better.

 

[Tyler L]

 

[64Springer]

You could kill two birds with one stone with that set-up.

Leave the set screw long and file fit the slotted end to the bottom of the arbor hole.

And file fit the other end for the wedge.

 

[45D]

You could kill two birds with one stone with that set-up.

Leave the set screw long and file fit the slotted end to the bottom of the arbor hole.

And file fit the other end for the wedge.

Not really. If you adjust it for wedge wear or position at all, you lose the endshake setting. It's best to set endshake with a spacer mounted in the arbor hole as a stand alone fix for arbor correction. That leaves the wedge bearing fully adjustable.

Mike

 

[Dude]

VTI GunParts for a new wedge.
Don’t know if a new one would be wider than the one you have. It’ll be brand new though.

It would be one thing if it was worn, but it isn't. I'd have thought there'd be a place offering wedges in varying widths, or at least one extra wide that could be filed down or machined to proper width.

Tyler said: The other option is to drill and tap the end of the arbor 1/4-28* for a flat-tipped set screw.

Thanks, Tyler! That looks pretty clean. How did you align the arbor in the drill press to drill it square?

 

[Rich44]

45D is setting you straight, Use a spacer for end play.
If you want to drill the arbor use a hex set screw so it does not touch spacer.
Using a drill press, you need a vice or clamps. Chuck the arbor in the drill chuck and the secure piece in vise. Secure vice to table and then loosen drill chuck. Use small center drill to get started.

 

[Tyler L]

Tyler said: The other option is to drill and tap the end of the arbor 1/4-28* for a flat-tipped set screw.

Thanks, Tyler! That looks pretty clean. How did you align the arbor in the drill press to drill it square?

@Rich44 's way works well. With the grip frame taken off, the frame clamps nicely in a vise. I like to verify the arbor is pointing straight up with a square.

Truth be told, I had a bit of a boo-boo on the drill press and the spotting drill went a little bit off-center, so I changed tack and set it up in my lathe's milling attachment. I won't bore you with that process, but if I find the photo I'll post it.

 

[Dude]

Using a drill press, you need a vice or clamps. Chuck the arbor in the drill chuck and the secure piece in vise. Secure vice to table and then loosen drill chuck. Use small center drill to get started

I hadn't thought of the rearward part being fairly square, so that should work. The other possibility I considered was making up a drill guide on the lathe. It's such a short distance, it should be pretty easy. But there also isn't much distance for for the setscrew. Since it's Italian I'll make it metric.

 

[M. De Land]

It would be one thing if it was worn, but it isn't. I'd have thought there'd be a place offering wedges in varying widths, or at least one extra wide that could be filed down or machined to proper width.

Tyler said: The other option is to drill and tap the end of the arbor 1/4-28* for a flat-tipped set screw.

Thanks, Tyler! That looks pretty clean. How did you align the arbor in the drill press to drill it square?

The other thing is the wedge has a five degree angle on the front side and your mating it to a flat ended screw so we have a single tiny point of contact. Even if radius-ed there is still minuscule contact made. Ever notice Colt putting a wedge depth adjustment screw in the end of his arbors?
Also I've been told all factory original Colt open frame guns had the arbor end fit but I have no definitive proof that is true. Given they were all hand fitted it would make sense for them to do so as it is a good practice.
Wedges get battered from being to soft and folks pounding them so hard they deform. I suspect adjustment screws leave their mark on the contact point as well but since I don't use them I cannot confirm this..
I make new wedges myself on a vertical mill then harden them and draw the temper . I have used both O-1 and A-2 tool steel but it takes half a day or more work for the whole process.

 

[Dude]

Thanks, M. De Land. I've had those same thoughts about the bearing surface not being as large. Looking at the bearing surface in the arbor, it's flat with ramps to each side. I suppose if the set screw was the same diameter as the slot, then bearing surface would be similar.

Another thought as well is wondering if drilling the end of the arbor would weaken it at all. It might, or might not. I can't conclude, visualizing it mentally, one way or the other, but I'm tempted to leave well enough alone if possible.

It seems the right solution is a proper fitting wedge. The problem with working A-2 is heat treating it at 900F. I don't have a furnace for something like that.

 

[Rich44]

Dude,

Didn't know you had a lathe. Drill guide is great way to be centered on round piece. I should have explained better on using drill chuck. Chuck arbor in drill chuck. Have way of clamping gun (grips off) with vise. Have drill press table adjusted so with quill extended vise will just touch table. Lift quill with gun and vise attached ever so slightly so vise is inline, lower and clamp vice to table. Loosen drill chuck and raise quill. This is a quick easy way when you have no milling machine or indicator.

But for my colt I used spacer to get correct end gap and made proper wedge for gun. This is what I really feel is correct. The spacer corrects the barrel from jamming the cylinder and keeps the barrel straight line with the arbor. The arbor should bottom out the same time the barrel part touches the frame. From a mechanical view point this is correct and is what colt design was about.

 

[45D]

The other thing is the wedge has a five degree angle on the front side and your mating it to a flat ended screw so we have a single tiny point of contact. Even if radius-ed there is still minuscule contact made. Ever notice Colt putting a wedge depth adjustment screw in the end of his arbors?
Also I've been told all factory original Colt open frame guns had the arbor end fit but I have no definitive proof that is true. Given they were all hand fitted it would make sense for them to do so as it is a good practice.
Wedges get battered from being to soft and folks pounding them so hard they deform. I suspect adjustment screws leave their mark on the contact point as well but since I don't use them I cannot confirm this..
I make new wedges myself on a vertical mill then harden them and draw the temper . I have used both O-1 and A-2 tool steel but it takes half a day or more work for the whole process.

Sir, I think if Sam Colt himself told you arbor "end fit" is correct you wouldn't believe him. I've told you my experience with originals, folks here have posted the same, folks that own them have told the same, if you'd read on other forums you'd get the same answers. You base all your ideas on inaccurate copies started by ignorant Italians that are still making them the same today! In fact, the one manufacturer that finally changed to a correct set up (which makes my work a little easier) still doesn't have any thought provoking effects apparently.

Anyway, again, as far as a contact patch on the forward side of the wedge with the arbor slot, the patch on originals is just a small point of contact. Your "suspect" thought about set screws leaving a mark must be an "opinion" of yours as well.

Here's the forward side of the wedge from my '60 45acp. No dents.

Mike

 

[45D]

I hadn't thought of the rearward part being fairly square, so that should work. The other possibility I considered was making up a drill guide on the lathe. It's such a short distance, it should be pretty easy. But there also isn't much distance for for the setscrew. Since it's Italian I'll make it metric.

You don't really need a drill guide, just use a punch. I drill them with the arbor in a large vice. Don't worry about extreme precision, as long as you're close to center you'll be fine. That's why I use a 1/4 X 28. It covers a lot of territory, well within where the originals contact patch is normally found.

Mike

 

[Rich44]

Sir, I think if Sam Colt himself told you arbor "end fit" is correct you wouldn't believe him.

Who are you referring to as Sir? Not me Rich44 because that is what I agree and stated. I just would rather have a proper fitting wedge than drill and tap the arbor as that was not needed with Colt. I do not care if you call it a short arbor or the hole in the barrel is to deep, they should touch or bottom out when assembled. So correct who you are talking to please.

 

[45D]

Who are you referring to as Sir? Not me Rich44 because that is what I agree and stated. I just would rather have a proper fitting wedge than drill and tap the arbor as that was not needed with Colt. I do not care if you call it a short arbor or the hole in the barrel is to deep, they should touch or bottom out when assembled. So correct who you are talking to please.

Ummm....... that would be directed to the person that I "quoted" in the post . . . ?

Mike

 

[Rich44]

Ummm....... that would be directed to the person that I "quoted" in the post . . . ?

Mike

Sorry, Good thing my half **** works well.

 

[M. De Land]

Thanks, M. De Land. I've had those same thoughts about the bearing surface not being as large. Looking at the bearing surface in the arbor, it's flat with ramps to each side. I suppose if the set screw was the same diameter as the slot, then bearing surface would be similar.

Another thought as well is wondering if drilling the end of the arbor would weaken it at all. It might, or might not. I can't conclude, visualizing it mentally, one way or the other, but I'm tempted to leave well enough alone if possible.

It seems the right solution is a proper fitting wedge. The problem with working A-2 is heat treating it at 900F. I don't have a furnace for something like that.

Yes, A-2 has a two stage hardening protocol and I have a programmable furnace to heat treat it. The reason I use it is that it warps very little as it is air quenched so fitting after hardening is much less labor. If I were you I would use 0-1 as you can harden and draw the temper with only a torch if careful not to oxidize it. It hardens at 1500-1550 F and is quenched in oil. I like to draw the temp around 500 F for a half hour or so and this will make them near file hard and relieve internal stresses. A wedge is of the shape and mass that there is little warpage danger when quenching.
A new wedge has much more area of contact with the arbor slot when spot fitted closely to the five degree taper than does an adjustment screw flat or even radius-ed screw shank end. Still most arbor slots tend to have a radius in the middle but the more area you can fit to the wedge taper the better.
The straight taper on the wedge mating up with the flat or rounded end of the adjustment screw creates a very small area of contact.
When making a wider wedge you will generally have to elongate the barrel slot forward a bit to allow clearance for it to move rearward with the wider wedge install. I ground a three safe sided ******* file just for front barrel slot clearance elongation.
You will probably need to trim the lower barrel lug as well to keep the barrel cylinder gap even. I do this between brass center barrel inserts in my lathe. Take very light cuts and check material removal often. The idea is to move both the barrel breech (via the wider wedge) and it's lower lug back evenly to maintain as even a barrel gap as possible. One of the reasons open frame guns tend to shoot high is because of to much lower lug height pushing up ward when the wedge cams the barrel to the rear.
Now is also the time to fit a short arbor end in it's well if this mod is to be made.
There is a lot going on here simultaneously .
This is the most accurate method of lug shorting I know of as it keeps every thing true and square to the bore.

 

[1stnamebassist]

You don't really need a drill guide, just use a punch. I drill them with the arbor in a large vice. Don't worry about extreme precision, as long as you're close to center you'll be fine. That's why I use a 1/4 X 28. It covers a lot of territory, well within where the originals contact patch is normally found.

Mike

Mike, I have a question. My 1862 pocket police has a smaller diameter arbor than the full-size colts. I drilled and tapped for a 6-32 set screw which seems to work fine, but I was wondering if I should have gone a bit larger, maybe 8-32 or maybe 10-32? Thoughts? By the way I’ve only had a chance to put 15 rounds through it, but with the action shield and cap post I had 100% function, so far anyway!