New to me: Le Page Reproduction

[Mica]

The Pedersoli Le Page pistols have been hard to find and pretty costly. I took a chance on this .44 Spanish-manufactured unit. It doesn’t seem to have been shot much, has good wood, some storage rust, and a nipple that appears to be for a revolver. I’m a relative newbie so that last thought may be off.
First range session yesterday.

A .10 patch and a .440 ball works well in my Kentucky .45 but that combination is VERY
tight and almost impossible to get started here. The ball would just break through the patch. After that, the ball was too loose and apparently wouldn’t grab the rifling and so accuracy was disastrous (30 grains Pyrodex P). Lousy trigger. Speaking of rifling, this looks more like lands and grooves than rifling.

Wondering if I should try a .451 ball and no patch. Thoughts?

 

[TNGhost]

The Pedersoli Le Page pistols have been hard to find and pretty costly. I took a chance on this .44 Spanish-manufactured unit. It doesn’t seem to have been shot much, has good wood, some storage rust, and a nipple that appears to be for a revolver. I’m a relative newbie so that last thought may be off.
First range session yesterday.

A .10 patch and a .440 ball works well in my Kentucky .45 but that combination is VERY
tight and almost impossible to get started here. The ball would just break through the patch. After that, the ball was too loose and apparently wouldn’t grab the rifling and so accuracy was disastrous (30 grains Pyrodex P). Lousy trigger. Speaking of rifling, this looks more like lands and grooves than rifling.

Wondering if I should try a .451 ball and no patch. Thoughts?View attachment 337627

Maybe a lubed felt wad and bare .451 ball.

What do you mean by "looks more like lands and grooves than rifling"?

 

[Bad Karma]

The Pedersoli Le Page pistols have been hard to find and pretty costly. I took a chance on this .44 Spanish-manufactured unit. It doesn’t seem to have been shot much, has good wood, some storage rust, and a nipple that appears to be for a revolver. I’m a relative newbie so that last thought may be off.
First range session yesterday.

A .10 patch and a .440 ball works well in my Kentucky .45 but that combination is VERY
tight and almost impossible to get started here. The ball would just break through the patch. After that, the ball was too loose and apparently wouldn’t grab the rifling and so accuracy was disastrous (30 grains Pyrodex P). Lousy trigger. Speaking of rifling, this looks more like lands and grooves than rifling.

Wondering if I should try a .451 ball and no patch. Thoughts?View attachment 337627

Looks like the old Marlin Microgroove rifling.

 

[hawkeye2]

"Speaking of rifling, this looks more like lands and grooves than rifling."

Rifling consists of lands and grooves.

Without a patch a round ball or bullet that will engage the rifling would be difficult to load and could cause leading. It sounds like you need a ball smaller than .440". Start your load development at about 15 grains of 3f and work up from there to find the most accurate load. The nipple is fine. A nice looking pistol, wish it were mine.

 

[wiscoaster]

You could try paper-patching:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...did-you-do-today.134755/page-765#post-2665560
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/loading-paper-patched-ball-tail-up-or-tail-down.182056/

 

[TNGhost]

Looks like the old Marlin Microgroove rifling.

Maybe leftovers from a run Bergara did for Marlin? Don't know if they ever had an 1895 .45-70 octagon barrel lever, or maybe had plans for one that didn't materialize, and this was from the surplus. Bergara did start out in the blackpowder arms business.

 

[Mica]

Maybe a lubed felt wad and bare .451 ball.

What do you mean by "looks more like lands and grooves than rifling"?

I get your point, Ghost. I was just thinking back to a History Channel piece or something about old artillery where the “rifling” is always termed “lands and grooves” and their muzzles showed the tight ridges (?) like this. I just had never seen this in a ML and it reminded me.

 

[Packrat]

Years ago I had a Pederso;i Le Page. it was a very accurate pistol;.
It was a bit to much Dueling pistol; for me, I traded it for a Charles Moore. Probably the same barrel. I have both in Flint and Percussion and both, if I do my part, are tack drivers

 

[Mcat]

"Speaking of rifling, this looks more like lands and grooves than rifling."

Rifling consists of lands and grooves.

Without a patch a round ball or bullet that will engage the rifling would be difficult to load and could cause leading. It sounds like you need a ball smaller than .440". Start your load development at about 15 grains of 3f and work up from there to find the most accurate load. The nipple is fine. A nice looking pistol, wish it were mine.

Yes. It is a 44 cal pistol. I have a boxed pair. Jukar. It takes a .430 round ball and .10 patch and still takes whamming it down. I just had one of the pistols out at the range a week ago for the first time. With 30 grains of fff at about 15 yards it shot very low. Mine has an adjustable rear sight. Screwing down raises the back sight. Got it closer, but screwed it all the way down when I got home. Will try again to see if it can hit at point of aim.

 

[Relic shooter]

Many original European rifles & pistols I've owned used this shallow style of microgroove rifling & provide excellent accuracy
when fitted with proper patched round ball & powder charge.
Measure the bore;
If you don't have calipers slug the bore dropping a short 3" long piece of brass rod down the bore & drive a slightly oversize lead ball just past the muzzle. Remove the slug by sharply rocking the barrel back & forth.
The pistols usually have shallow cut rifling so once bore size is established try a ball diameter that is about .005 smaller along with a .010 thick lubed patch & 15 gr. of 3F as a starting load.
For optimum consistent grouping consider installing a quality nipple with a small base hole, I personally prefer Tresco nipples.
Enjoy, should be a winner once you get a load developed !

 

[Bad Karma]

Maybe @No second place can chime in. I’m positive he has experience with these pistols…

 

[No second place]

Maybe @No second place can chime in. I’m positive he has experience with these pistols…

Yes, but where do I start. Are you hunting, shooting for best score or just playing / plinking? My LePage`s hold National records, but my loads are just for punching holes in paper 25 and 50 yards. Your needs may vary with intended use. Just for reference my primary match pistols are .32s and .36 cal. with one .40cal. my 25 yard match winning loads have varied from 12 1/2 grs of Swiss 3f to a maximum of 18 grs Swiss..Goex or Shutzen 3f 15grs to 20grs. When shooting .44s or .45s still not more than 15-20 grs. needed per my testing... Patches compressed with a dial caliper cotton pillow ticking .16-.23 thou. never less. cut into squares a bit larger than the barrel face. No need to wash the cloth. Soapy water lube will soften it before loading...That said... This pistol has 2 issues as pictured. A crown that does not allow a tight patch ball combo without patch cutting and a rough barrel needing lapping or at least polishing. Issues like this are common on even some Pedersoli guns. Other brands more so...Very rare for me to see any factory made gun without any issues. Commonly even the barrel wedge has to be tweaked and or wedge peened for the barrel not to wobble. I have yet to buy new or used BP match pistols custom or factory that did not need a few tuning issues addressed before I would even bother taking it to the range...c

 

[Coinneach]

The Pedersoli Le Page pistols have been hard to find and pretty costly. I took a chance on this .44 Spanish-manufactured unit. It doesn’t seem to have been shot much, has good wood, some storage rust, and a nipple that appears to be for a revolver. I’m a relative newbie so that last thought may be off.
First range session yesterday.

A .10 patch and a .440 ball works well in my Kentucky .45 but that combination is VERY
tight and almost impossible to get started here. The ball would just break through the patch. After that, the ball was too loose and apparently wouldn’t grab the rifling and so accuracy was disastrous (30 grains Pyrodex P). Lousy trigger. Speaking of rifling, this looks more like lands and grooves than rifling.

Wondering if I should try a .451 ball and no patch. Thoughts?View attachment 337627

Correct me if Im wrong, but it appears from the photo of the rifling in the barrel theres chatter marks on the lands, if its so then that could be your problem.

 

[Coinneach]

Years ago I had a Pederso;i Le Page. it was a very accurate pistol;.
It was a bit to much Dueling pistol; for me, I traded it for a Charles Moore. Probably the same barrel. I have both in Flint and Percussion and both, if I do my part, are tack drivers

I have a pair of the Pedersoli Charles Moore Flintlock pistols (refer my avatar) and am very happy with them, they were made well before the covid saga and are quality products.

 

[wiscoaster]

Correct me if Im wrong, but it appears from the photo of the rifling in the barrel theres chatter marks on the lands, if its so then that could be your problem.

That bore looks pretty ugly, but it might be the lighting? I'd want to polish that bore. So I took a close look at my own gun's bore, and saw that my bore's grooves have the same marks, but they're regular, equal depth and equally spaced, so I attribute it to the intentional result of whatever rifling process they're using - not something I know much about - but more to the point, I'm not having the same problems as the OP, and my gun shoots extremely well. So wrt my own gun, I don't think those marks are having any adverse effect, and I don't plan to do a thing.

 

[Mica]

Many thanks for your comments and input, gents. I’ll get some .430 balls and give her another try. Will polish the bore as well. I use Ballistol on my BP pistols, but I don’t think it’ll take out the rust. Would Hoppes 9 work on the rust?

 

[wiscoaster]

I just meant I felt an urge to polish the bore; I didn't mean to imply that's what should be done. Polishing won't do a thing to the milling marks.

 

[cal.43]

The stamp on the barrel says 11.2mm that will be .440 inch you need a ball smaller than .440 .
My Spanish le Page shoot well with Swiss No2 and a .38 special case as powder measure.

 

[Bad Karma]

Many thanks for your comments and input, gents. I’ll get some .430 balls and give her another try. Will polish the bore as well. I use Ballistol on my BP pistols, but I don’t think it’ll take out the rust. Would Hoppes 9 work on the rust?

A dry pencil eraser will work on the rusty parts…

 

[nick_1]

your 440 ball is too tight so people tell you to go to a larger ball????? try to find out what size it really wants. My pedersoli le page uses a .433 ball and .10 patch they call mine a .44 but you need to find out what size you have.