New TVM Virginia - Finishing the Rear Sight

[F_Thomas]

I noticed Matt's post and the beautiful pictures of his new TVM rifle.

Mine came with the a shallow "V" notched into the rear sight and would like some advice on how to properly finish the rear sight. Just use the "V" or file or cut a slot in the sight. That is what I am used to on a GPR. I don't want to start out by messing up a beautiful gun and having to replace the sight straight away.

All advice truly welcome. I'm a newbie at flintlocks and fairly new to black powder so my experience level is growing, but I'm by no means a seasoned shooter of BP.

 

[longcruise]

Is yours a kit yet to be built or a finished gun?

I'd go shoot it and see how you like it under field conditions. Might maybe just leave it alone and confine your changes to the front sight?

Hard to tell without pics.

I have one gun with that tiype of "V" rear sight and it's not my favorite, but to each his own you know.

 

[shootemup]

That shallow "v" is a guide for filing. I agree with marmotslayer, shoot the rifle before you start filing on the sights. Go slowly - and have a look at this article from the TVM site before you do anything:
http://www.avsia.com/tvm/_documents/Sighting In A Rifle.pdf

Good luck with it.

:hatsoff:
Spot

 

[roundball]

I've recently gone through that learning curve on some Virginia's Matt built for me. I ordered my Virginias with an additional spare rear sight...assuming I'd "learn" my way through one and need another...and following the second rear sight I was pleased to find that TOW carries that same exact sight :grin: .

Biggest piece of advice I can give from my experience is go slow...very slow and thoughtful...filing those new oversized sights can be a PITA because you dare not file off more that a 1-2 dozen strokes at a time then take a couple shots, file some more, etc.
One benefit to having "learned" my way through a couple sights was I truly learned about how group size is negativeley affected by having a notch too wide...a lot of precision is lost. So on my final rear sight, I ended up using a hacksaw blade to take the rear sight notch down in gradual steps and never let it get too wide. Remember that you can always widen later...but once too wide, you can't make it narrow again.

Also, there is a relationship between the front and rear...I also learned that I liked both sights very low close to the barrel...so there's some back and forth jockying around there that can be done. There's a lot of material to file down through depending on all the load and shooting variables...so decide FIRST what you'll use the ML for...IE: targets or hunting...if the sight picture you want to always have is a 6 o'clock hold on a target bullseye at 25-50yds...or if you like a center mass hold for hunting with a 50yd zero and hold over accordingly for 75-100yds...with that decision made and as your goal, then you'll know better how to proceed.

 

[hanshi]

It is true that the TVM rifles come with a blank rear sight with only a "guide notch" to help center the file when you cut the notch for shooting. I much prefer this common sense practice.

I have two rifles specifically for hunting deer. On both the rear sight notches, cut with a rattail file, are moderately wide with lots of space on either side of the front sight. This makes them very quick to bring to bear on a deer. There may be a slight loss of precision but both rifles but I still get excellent results on the target range.

The remaining two rifles I use have rather narrow notches filed into the rear sight. They are not as fast to bring on target but are very precise. This is in keeping with their use as small game and varmint rifles.

Do heed the posted advice to go slow. I tinkered with mine for weeks to get them just right.

 

[F_Thomas]

No, my rifle came finished. Well, except for the sight. That is one thing I wish that they would have done and I am sure it would have been spot on.

But, I didn't order an extra sight so am a bit concerned to start wacking on it. I even thought about using a caliper on the front and cutting the sight a bit wider. Just enough to give a tad of daylight for a good sight picture.

I get it slow. Right now I'm so slow because I am afraid to start.

 

[roundball]

No, my rifle came finished. Well, except for the sight. That is one thing I wish that they would have done and I am sure it would have been spot on.

But, I didn't order an extra sight so am a bit concerned to start wacking on it. I even thought about using a caliper on the front and cutting the sight a bit wider. Just enough to give a tad of daylight for a good sight picture.

I get it slow. Right now I'm so slow because I am afraid to start.

My suggestion would be to go ahead and order 2-3 spares from TOW...they're cheap and that way you'd have them on hand for now and in the future for changes you may very well want to make to your load which would probably change the POI.
People can say what they want about the adjustable rear sights on most mass produced muzzleloaders, but good gracious they are simple and convenient.

 

[longcruise]

Matt can probably sell you a couple more of those rear sights for a reasonable price.

Just go ahead and start in on it. If things go terribly wrong you can just mount a new one.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

No, my rifle came finished. Well, except for the sight. That is one thing I wish that they would have done and I am sure it would have been spot on.

But, I didn't order an extra sight so am a bit concerned to start wacking on it. I even thought about using a caliper on the front and cutting the sight a bit wider. Just enough to give a tad of daylight for a good sight picture.

I get it slow. Right now I'm so slow because I am afraid to start.

Don't cut your rear notch wider than the actual thickness of the front, it would then appear TO MUCH wider since it is closer to the eye. To start with I'd cut it not quite so wide as the actual thickness of the front.

 

[F_Thomas]

Great advice. What depth did you end up with. I have considered using a Dremmel with a cutting wheel and then a file or even a grinding wheel on the Dremmel to whittle a tad off each side to determine width and a file for the final depth.

The depth should be a matter of preferance, but the width is critical. As I work a load up for hunting, my first choice of use, I hope that I won't have to whittle on the front and then have to figure out how to fix the finish.

This issues trades one problem for another it seems.

 

[majg1234]

Just did this with my TVM southern mtn rifle,Matt advised 3/16 or so with a hack saw...took his advice and you can see the groups I posted here with it http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/250927/

Don't know how yours will do but Matt seems to know what his rifles will do...could have been luck but I think no changes need to be made GOOD LUCK :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

IMO, I don't believe there's a one-size-fits-all that can be said about the depth of a notch...too many variables...load and recoil, weight of the firearm, shooting form, and a very big one is the preferred sight picture.

Questions like do you normally use a sight picture that has the front sight even with the horizontal top of the rear sight? (in which case slot depth is virtually meaningless).
Or do you like to position the front sight somewhere up and down in the notch...ie: middle of the vertical slot, or resting on the bottom, etc, in which case slot depth becomes important.
I could measure mine but it would be meaningless to you until you think through and decide on things like that, settle on your load, etc.

I happen to like my front sight halfway up the rear slot...and like my sights physically low on the barrel. When I finally figured out what I was doing, got the front sight and notch depth low enough I then used a belt sander and flattened down all the excess of the whole rear sight that was above any useful purpose.

The photo shows how low I reduced down the overall size of the rear sight. The barrel sports its 2nd front sight and 3rd rear sight...but it was an extra $20 well spent as it was really a good, eye opener learning experience. The Virginia comes to the shoulder with a snap, the sights fall perfectly in place naturally, and its dead on 50yds with my deer hunting load.

.62cal Early Virginia smoothbore

 

[F_Thomas]

There has not only been some gread advice here, but some unbelievably beautiful guns, such as yours. Love that stock!!!!!

I'll start with 3/16 and since I prefer my front sight level with the top of the rear depth becomes a mute point. Just deep enough to line it up nice.

I am going to chronicle the experience with some digital photo's and comment and post it here.

Thanks all for the help and encouragement!

 

[texcl]

My Va rifle came with a square notch as I requested and I love it, I think I'm used to combat pistol and military rifle sights. When I was younger and my eyes were sharp I used to love fine sights. I also hunt alot in real dense woods with low light and this is where a big square notch really shines. It is all very subjective.

 

[F_Thomas]

I have to agree with you. I was a Chief Warrant Officer 3 and a Training Officer. Back then, LOL - I'm 57 now, fine sights were fine. Not now!! Oh, let be get my reading glasses.

I can at least laugh at myself! Hope my sense of humor does not fail me in the sight cutting process.

 

[Tom Compton]

...and like my sights physically low on the barrel.

Agree that sights are very personal. I just bought 3 sets of sights 1/2" tall to make up for the lack of drop on a couple of guns.

There is a formula for calculating the amount of material to remove or even how many clicks of adjustment are needed.

X/D = M/SR and solve for X.

SR is the sight radius of the particular gun.

M = the distance to move the point of impact in inches.

D = the range in inches at which that amount of movement is desired.

IE You want to move the POI 4.3" @ 100 yards and the sight radius is 20".

x/3600 = 4.3/20
X = 4.3*20/3600
X = .023888"

With that info, you can make a mark on a primitive sight at .020" and file to there then work it down a stroke or two at a time.

If using an adjustable sight, you need the thread count on the sight and the number of clicks per full turn.

Say the sight adjusting screw is 48 turns per inch and there are 12 clicks to a revolution. Ea full turn would move the sight 1/48 " or .0208333. Ea click then would be .020833/12 or .0017361. Using the above .0239 distance to move the sight .0239/.00174 = 13.7 clicks (or round to 14 as most of us cannot see the difference).

TC

 

[longrifle89]

Are there any particular types of files or tools that are especially suited for this?

How are files classified? I must admit I know little about them...

 

[roundball]

I think they're referred to as 'needle files'...I ordered a Sears Craftsman set for about $19.95...has a half dozen different shapes

 

[texcl]

Yup, when I bought my set they were refered to as needle files as well. When I built my tennesee rifle (also from TVM)I started with a tiny v shape and ended up moving to a larger square shape after shooting it for a while, the V shape is easier to file in since the starter notch is V shaped, but it isn't difficult by any means no matter what shape you go with, you just have to go slow.