newbies like to learn thing from the masters, please forgive me.

[Eutycus]

Way back close to the beginning of this thread it was mentioned that this same topic was brought up 2 years ago on a differant forum. Did the "experts" there reach a conclusion?

 

[BlackHillsBob]

i liked your use of the word, experts, i bet over all, 10 percent like the idea and the rest hate it with a passion for any reason they can think up, some may even be valid. as i read every thing, i like the brit shooter who has used it for years as well as linen for patching. he has real experience, i only tried it a few times and liked it but got scared off when i read about the colt ssa who needed work after the owner tried it, it didnt blow my nipple off, didnt cock the hammer as from a dangerous over load. it shot accurate and the barrel at the breech was a lot cleaner than with 3f and 2f. my experience is with precussion, never shot rock lock, worked well for the boy who won the match. been interesting listening to every one.

 

[Black Hand]

Way back close to the beginning of this thread it was mentioned that this same topic was brought up 2 years ago on a differant forum. Did the "experts" there reach a conclusion?

If this discussion was any indication, it likely never got past the dogmatic assertions that FFFFg would cause baldness, senility and your gun to blow up if you even thought about using it in the barrel....

 

[Black Hand]

I do however think that we did make some forward progress...

 

[George]

Maybe now some of us are able to at least consider the possibility that shooting even a little 4F won't automatically blow up a sound barrel.

The idea that a sound barrel can be blown by a large charge of 2F or 3F normally loaded would be another topic worth considering. We could use a little progress there, too.

Spence

 

[Darkhorse]

What have I learned?.....I will never consider the possibility of shooting even a little 4f as the main charge. I am just too stubborn to do that and I'm perfectly satisfied using 4f as prime and 2f and 3f for the main charge.
I will never trust the results of someone else's test, unless possibly I am there and in on the procedure.
However, I will concede there is a lack of verified test procedures and results out there to safely make a choice. I sent an email to Goex to inquire of such testing....

Send us a Message


I am an old traditional flintlocker. I use 2fg and 3fg Goex for my main charges and 4fg Goex to prime my pans.
However an increasing amount of younger shooters wish to try 4fg as the main charge citing a lack of testing data showing there is a real danger of blowing up a gun.
Fact is, it's hard to successfully argue the point because I myself can find nothing definite against using 4fg as a main charge.
Do you have any data that you are willing to share with me to help me convince some of these shooters against the use of 4fg as a main charge?
Thank you,
Ronald Lane

And this is the reply...with the name of the Technician removed.

Thank you for reaching out to us.

We appreciate your work and effort in passing along the traditions of muzzleloading to new shooters. We do not have pressure testing data for 4f powder. As you already know 4f should only be used for priming pans. If 4f were used as a main charge the pressures would be very high but the velocities would remain low, you would be gaining nothing and risking everything. A good point is to remind these young shooter what is at risk: eye sight , use of your hands, possibly death, the dangers are real.


Thank you again for your contribution to our youth and the tradition of muzzleloading.


Technical support

6430 vista dr.

Shawnee, Ks 66218

So this is how it stands with me and I will admit that perhaps my long held beliefs were not so accurate after all. So I wish to issue an apology to anyone I offended.
Ron Lane (Darkhorse)

 

[BlackHillsBob]

thank you black hand for your reply, by the way black hand was the first name of the mifia, are you italian?

 

[George]

I sent an email to Goex to inquire of such testing....

I did the same to Lyman, haven't heard back yet.

Spence

 

[Britsmoothy]

What have I learned?.....I will never consider the possibility of shooting even a little 4f as the main charge. I am just too stubborn to do that and I'm perfectly satisfied using 4f as prime and 2f and 3f for the main charge.
I will never trust the results of someone else's test, unless possibly I am there and in on the procedure.
However, I will concede there is a lack of verified test procedures and results out there to safely make a choice. I sent an email to Goex to inquire of such testing....

Send us a Message


I am an old traditional flintlocker. I use 2fg and 3fg Goex for my main charges and 4fg Goex to prime my pans.
However an increasing amount of younger shooters wish to try 4fg as the main charge citing a lack of testing data showing there is a real danger of blowing up a gun.
Fact is, it's hard to successfully argue the point because I myself can find nothing definite against using 4fg as a main charge.
Do you have any data that you are willing to share with me to help me convince some of these shooters against the use of 4fg as a main charge?
Thank you,
Ronald Lane

And this is the reply...with the name of the Technician removed.

Thank you for reaching out to us.

We appreciate your work and effort in passing along the traditions of muzzleloading to new shooters. We do not have pressure testing data for 4f powder. As you already know 4f should only be used for priming pans. If 4f were used as a main charge the pressures would be very high but the velocities would remain low, you would be gaining nothing and risking everything. A good point is to remind these young shooter what is at risk: eye sight , use of your hands, possibly death, the dangers are real.


Thank you again for your contribution to our youth and the tradition of muzzleloading.


Technical support

6430 vista dr.

Shawnee, Ks 66218

So this is how it stands with me and I will admit that perhaps my long held beliefs were not so accurate after all. So I wish to issue an apology to anyone I offended.
Ron Lane (Darkhorse)

I can not believe what I just read !!
A goex technician states clearly they have no pressure testing data for 4f and then goes on to repeat the dogma so often repeated!
Amazing.
The man a goex says......now let's all prostrate our selves before the man at goex.....errr no thanks, errr he just covered his ass me thinks!

How come goex don't have in bold print warnings on the can?

In my guns I get an increase in performance using it period.

It's amazing to think that a book exists full of prophesy all of which came true but many disbelieve it when it refers to our origin yet when a man comes up with an alternative, a theory, as to our origins millions put blind faith in that one and question nothing!
Amazing!

 

[bigted]

Well I would suggest we try to have tests done in those funny guns that are broken back behind. In fact they should have many tests already done to show pressure of 2F and 3F for comparison. If a fella were so inclined I would guess he could load some 4F powder in a broken [ I say broken because of the rear end has those broken breech plugs] suppository style gun and read the primer as more n more powder is loaded just to see if a fella could get pressure signs from such a test.

I too am a bit disappointed in GOEX's canned answer. Seems to me that a powder manufacturer that has no extra warnings on their own containers, would have a more factual and informative reply.

However the no extra warnings on the containers tells me a magnitude of info. In such litigation rich times, seems like if there were really problems associated with the loading of 4F powder for a main charge, the bank of litigator's would insist on such a warning label.

Yet ... no such warnings have been seen.

 

[Black Hand]

thank you black hand for your reply, by the way black hand was the first name of the mifia, are you italian?

Even better - Sicilian...
But that isn't the reason for the appellation, merely a happy coincidence.

 

[Black Hand]

However the no extra warnings on the containers tells me a magnitude of info. In such litigation rich times, seems like if there were really problems associated with the loading of 4F powder for a main charge, the bank of litigator's would insist on such a warning label.

Yet ... no such warnings have been seen.

I suspect this is where the dogma originated that has been perpetuated by countless others - it is a CYA tactic. I would rather make an informed decision based on solid facts.

 

[Carbon 6]

They said they didn't have any data (to give him)
But then went on to say;

As you already know 4f should only be used for priming pans. If 4f were used as a main charge the pressures would be very high but the velocities would remain low, you would be gaining nothing and risking everything. A good point is to remind these young shooter what is at risk: eye sight , use of your hands, possibly death, the dangers are real.

I'd strongly focus on the latter part of what they said instead of cherry picking, and making assumptions.

 

[Black Hand]

They said they didn't have any data (to give him)
But then went on to say;
"As you already know 4f should only be used for priming pans. If 4f were used as a main charge the pressures would be very high but the velocities would remain low, you would be gaining nothing and risking everything. A good point is to remind these young shooter what is at risk: eye sight , use of your hands, possibly death, the dangers are real."
I'd strongly focus on the latter part of what they said instead of cherry picking, and making assumptions.

If they have no data to back any of what they say, then what they DO say is suspect. It may be done with the best of intentions, but still has nothing for support.

 

[54ball]

This is what I have leaned on the good ole MLF the past few days and my online research into this 4F thing.
1. I am not a metallurgist nor am I a powder or ballistics expert so my opinion on any of this is wholly unqualified. My only meager qualification is I put my face within inches of an explosion.
2. I really like Mr. Britsmoothy he is one of whom I have great respect. I especially like his last posting.
3. This whole proof vs "dogma thing. Of that, I have learned absolutely nothing.
4. BlackHillsBob likes hot button topics.
5. The whole Dogma thing may be a back door, around the tree way to discuss something that has absolutely nothing to do with 4f powder but everything to do with belief systems.
6. That 47 grns of 3f has more pressure than 47 grns of 4f in a revolver. Just how that translates to a rifle...I don't know.
7. Going by that aged Lyman data....4f. May be inefficient with less pressure and less velocity than other sporting powders. Just how that data translates to rifles, I don't know.
8. This whole thing makes me as nervous as a naked parrot.

Like the aforementioned naked parrot all I've got is...
Proceed with Caution
Proceed with Caution
Proceed with Caution
errrr
Proceed with Caution

 

[Black Hand]

5. The whole Dogma thing may be a back door, around the tree way to discuss something that has absolutely nothing to do with 4f powder but everything to do with belief systems.

Has everything to do with facts/evidence and and avoiding/accepting dogmatic statements that are unsupported by facts/evidence. Regardless of how fervently or how many people believe something has no bearing on the facts/evidence. In other words, no matter how hard millions of kids believe in Santa Claus has no bearing on the actual existence of Santa Claus and no matter how many people believe that FFFFg will cause your barrel to explode has any bearing on the fact that no one can show that FFFFg will cause you barrel to explode.
It's all about what you can support with facts/evidence....

dog·mat·ic
(dôg-măt′ĭk, dŏg-)
adj.
1. Relating to, characteristic of, or resulting from dogma.
2.
a. Asserting or insisting upon ideas or principles, especially when unproven or unexamined, in an imperious or arrogant manner.
b. Characterized by such assertion, often with an unconsidered rejection of criticism.

 

[Bo T]

Good discussion. What is the price of 4f vs 3f vs 2f?

I have consulted with the spirits and they told an old scot made up the tale about 4f being dangerous as a main charge to keep the kids from using up his 4f powder, which was in short supply and which he needed to charge his pan. It worked!

 

[BlackHillsBob]

yes i like hot topics as they help me learn more. i want to learn every possible thing i can and i need input from others. i dont think hot is the right word. i think thinking out of the box and leaning from those around us and from the past is what i do. the thing that made the gun maker i am to day and the long range shooter i am is this. old morg shot the first shot at the battle of new orleans and it was a off hand shot at a little over 200 yards and it took the jack ass young brit officer to the other side. it sent a round ball through his head and ear level.i learned from research how to do that my self. if i was their at that battle some of those 3000 plus brits that fell that day with mostly head shots at 100 yards would easily been mine. i would have slept well that night. after that battle the brits never tried to take us on again. only around 9 to 11 americans were killed that day, most of them was native american scouts. those brits never met 500 long rifles like they did that day. they attacked the center where the long rifles were thinking that those rifles could only shoot small critters and such. the only other american battle that was that one sided was in what is now north dakota. the french cree chippawa stood off 4000 sioux and their was less than 100 of them, it was 1856. they fought two battles that day. one french cree chippawa was killed over and over 2000 sioux were killed or wounded. never again did the sioux mess with the northern mixed bloods. those mixed bloods had fine stone lock rifles. they also fought the canadians to a stand still until they run out of lead for bullets. my great grandmother was one of them and im proud to be apart of their blood. my son also married one of them. i also have 2 grandchildren that are them and a great grandaughter also. she also has the blood of a great standing rock war chief in her, chief gaul.chief gaul was a bull of a man and my great grandaughter is strong also and does she love to dance. ok thats enough from the north of america, have a good day every one.

 

[George]

I did the same to Lyman, haven't heard back yet.

I wrote to Lyman:

"Has Lyman ever done any pressure and/or velocity testing of 4F black powder as the main charge in long arms?"

I got a reply today.

"We would not test the 4F as it is too fine of a granulation and will increase the risk of “cook offs” and dangerous!."

Spence

 

[Juice Jaws]

This is what I have leaned on the good ole MLF the past few days and my online research into this 4F thing.
1. I am not a metallurgist nor am I a powder or ballistics expert so my opinion on any of this is wholly unqualified. My only meager qualification is I put my face within inches of an explosion.
2. I really like Mr. Britsmoothy he is one of whom I have great respect. I especially like his last posting.
3. This whole proof vs "dogma thing. Of that, I have learned absolutely nothing.
4. BlackHillsBob likes hot button topics.
5. The whole Dogma thing may be a back door, around the tree way to discuss something that has absolutely nothing to do with 4f powder but everything to do with belief systems.
6. That 47 grns of 3f has more pressure than 47 grns of 4f in a revolver. Just how that translates to a rifle...I don't know.
7. Going by that aged Lyman data....4f. May be inefficient with less pressure and less velocity than other sporting powders. Just how that data translates to rifles, I don't know.
8. This whole thing makes me as nervous as a naked parrot.

Like the aforementioned naked parrot all I've got is...
Proceed with Caution
Proceed with Caution
Proceed with Caution
errrr
Proceed with Caution

I don't think your parrot is nervous, just looks cold to me.