No Excuses NEW 54 cal 485 gr bullet Reviews?

[Smartweed]

Just to reply to Glenn, the guy who runs no excuses broke the mold for the 535 grain I love. His new big mold is 525 grain. But this new 485 has me thinking it might be the ticket. Shoot a hair flatter with the same load. These 535 shoot great out of my stock renegade, guess I'll have to get a box of 485 and test them. If I can remember, I'll post results....

 

[SPQR70AD]

Sectional density makes a difference in penetration. Does that not apply to muzzleloaders as well?

I've shot two white tail with a 50cal PRB. Went in, didn't come out. Shot several with 385-425gr maxis, always a big hole in and a bigger hole out. Sure, a big hard round ball will still penetrate, but it's mass and sectional density is pretty low by comparison to longer heavier conicals. Just my personal experience

SD is the major reason for deep penetration. I do not believe RB's come close to penetrating like a long bullet

 

[Dphar1950]

If you fell you have to shoot that far then get a Sharps or a Remington rolling block. With the sights available on a traditional ML shots past 150. Are pretty iffy. Tang sights? Hooded front sights? What about laser range finders? Cause your gonna need one. I have also hunted quite a bit with BPCRs and even with a nicely accurate such rifle in 45-100 or such shooting from cross sticks its not that hard to miss even an elk at extended ranges. I have done if from a simple bobble or a friend of mine years ago missed a BIG YNP bull at 425 from simple range estimation errors and we are and at the time were well experienced. But as the range gets extended the trajectory gets very steep and when there is nothing but the animal out there to give a hint as to range its very easy to goof the shot simply through a trick of lighting or color. And I am pretty well experienced in BPCR at ranges to at least 600 yards aand have shot “gong“ matches past 1000. Also I have, for example, hunted Antelope with a tradition ML successfully for decades. Where I often hunt, and I am a stalker, I don’t sit in a blind by some trail, there is often no cover other than rolling prairie and maybe some hills and grass. You gotta know how to hunt. And I hunt public land almost exclusively. Have I made a few 150 yard shots on animals, sure, but at 72 my eyes are not what they were when I was in my 20s and 30s. I have made successful shots from standing on deer, with a FL, no choice I prefer sitting out prone when shooting animals to 100 or more at times. My shooting eye got so bad that I had to stop hunting with open sights for a few years and went to a brass suppository rifle with a scope. But they fixed my eye, pretty much, and I shot a WT doe at a about 20 yards in a creek bottom with my swivel breech. Yeah I walked up on them and got a shot. So I have shot probably 100 various deer, Antelope and Elk with a round ball. They almost never stay in I suspect that I could count the ones that don‘t pass through on one hand and tow of these were pistol shot, actually I thing it was 6 total. For exmaple, back when my folks still had some land in Montana I was hunting on the school lease and say an antelope buck bedded in a coolie (thats a draw or what ever for Eastern types) so I sneak down there knowing he must be hurt, he gets up at maybe 20-25 yards and I shoot him with a 6” barreled FL pistol 50 cal 45 gr os FFF. It passed through and put up such a dirt plume that I thought I had somehow missed. He took a couple of steps and piled. He had been shot throught the mouth from the side by some modern and was pretty messed up. I shot another dying but still alive mule deer buck at an angle from shoulder to diaphragm missing the big bones and was at the off side hide at the diaphragm. This little pistol at 800 fps, yeah I had a Chronograph over 40 years ago, in baffle board tests, would give about the same penetration at 25 yards as my rifles a 50 and 54, would at 175-200. And the Maxi-ball, the reason for the baffle board tests, did about 30% more. But since the RB at normal ML ranges almost always passed through what was the point of the Maxi-Ball? It was to appeal to people who did not know any better. AND from various reports it was a very poor killer and resulted in deer at least escaping and in one case the guy killed the deer the NEXT year with a bullet track though its lungs. I have a friend in Canada who, along with his brother gave up on conicals altogether. And who watched another hunter blow him do a one shot kill in a moose at 175 yards with a 54 RB. No stern chase required. Finally the risk part involves two factors, first the early rash of T_C “Hawkens” that failed when using the Maxi (may have been one with the RB) and there were a number of them and people were hurt. They were getting barrels from the wrong source. And reports of friends hunting with or meeting hunters in the field with the Maxi partly protruding from the muzzle since they did not stay put. The three of them were using the things and one had this problem. Same guys that finally gave them up for the RB. The US military was very familiar with this phenomenon and this, I believe, is why proofing of rifle muskets involved a Minie ball spaced off the powder. They never could make them work for a cavalry carbine since even the smoothbores would unload themselves when loaded with paper cartridges when slung.
For reference see:
”A Hunters Wandering In Africa” by Selous
“The Sporting Rifle and It’s Projectiles” by Forsythe
“Wild Beasts and Their Ways“ and “With Rifle and Hound In Ceylon” by Sir Samuel Baker
“The Gun and Its Development” 1896 by W.W. Greener. He talks of MLs shooting conicals not killing as well.
”Firearms of the American West 1803-1865” Garavaglia and Worman
And I almost forgot.
”Pondoro” by John Taylor. Specifically the “More Elephant Stories“ chapter.
”The Oregon Trail” by Francis Parkman where his guide (whose name I could not spell without digging out the book) kills two buffalo in two shots at 175 yards. Remember the Buffalo hunters of the 1870s thought that 2-3 shots per animal with more powerful brass suppository guns was a good average. But they would intentionally gut shoot some to keep them from running.
Now having hunted with a wide variety of firearms and quite a bit with round balls, some few with a couple of American military service rifles, several different BPCR calibers and case lengths and other brass suppository types from pretty anemic to pretty powerful and having guided hunters for Elk and deer. I will tell you this SHOT PLACEMENT trumps power. Penetration? As Forsythe states it only need be ”adequate” since in most cases on deer sized animals a 50-54-58-67 pure lead RB give about 30” of penetration what’s the problem? They will kill, from both historical and contemporary experience a wide range of critters efficiently at ranges exceeding many shooters capability with traditional sights. Will a PROPERLY DESIGNED conical or cylindrical work? Sure. Shot critters with them, just not in a ML.
Finally if you miff the shot with ANYTHING or go for a “Texas Heart Shot” as some might call it, you will have problems no matter what you are shooting.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Getting the mould means you never have to run out.
I have 45 cal mould that makes 360-540gr postel pills.
Might have to paper patch a few down the flinter and see what happens.

 

[Siringo]

I had a Pedersoli Missouri River in 50 caliber. The twist is 1/24. I wanted to make it into a long range shooter. I had target sights, glass bedded, anchored the hooked breach to barrel, ect, ect. I used paper patched pure lead conicals. Those bullets were purchased from Buffalo arms. In a 50 caliber anything less that 550 grains would not slug into the rifling. 500 grain was marginal. Powder charges were 90 grains of swiss 2F to make that happen. With a curved butt plate, recoil was unpleasant to say the least. I was wishing for a 45 caliber at that point. And even those need heavy bullets and powder charges. So I ditched to gun. Too much recoil and no fun!

I also had a TC 54. The bullet that shot the best was the Great Plains by Hornady. But those engrave the rifling. The bullet was short enough to stabilize in the 1/48 twist. But alas the recoil was fierce in that too so I shot balls all the time.

 

[Dphar1950]

Sectional density makes a difference in penetration. Does that not apply to muzzleloaders as well?

I've shot two white tail with a 50cal PRB. Went in, didn't come out. Shot several with 385-425gr maxis, always a big hole in and a bigger hole out. Sure, a big hard round ball will still penetrate, but it's mass and sectional density is pretty low by comparison to longer heavier conicals. Just my personal experience

But the deer died, right? As I stated previously I have shot something in the range of a 100 various Montana critters with a RB. 50 calibers always pass through deer as do the larger one unless its a raking shot or a strikes a pretty large bone. I had a failure to pass through on a cow elk when it broke the humerus going in, still a one shot kill with a 54. Did the same on a MD doe with a 54 pistol. Neither got very far and the elk went down for a time but got up and ran down towards me about 50 yards and piled. And if we read Forsythe‘s “The Sporting Rifle and It’s Projectiles” who went into this in considerable detail, penetration only need be “adequate”. He was a round ball advocate by the way. The first deer my son killed was with a 45 cal FL 36” barrel 445 RB and 45 gr of FFF. Offhand shot about 50 yards. Passed through just over the heart. Ball hit off side hide and bounced back into the chest cavity and was lost in field dressing. Deer ran about 50 yards and piled up. My son was 12. Typical for Mule Deer I have seen them run farther shot in the same place with far more “powerful” high velocity brass suppository rifles with large exits. So what does that prove? For those who believe “energy“ is important imparting all the energy in the bullet in the critter is supposed to be better. But in reality its the shot placement and blood loss to the brain that gets the job done. I prefer exits but its not necessary and other than sometimes making a better blood trail, it does not seem to change anything.

 

[Africa58double]

There certainly are advantages to The conical bullets like The No excuses- 525

Im certain If you ask Muzzleloader hunters that shoot 150-165yards+ That need to reach those animals where they hunt

If you fell you have to shoot that far then get a Sharps or a Remington rolling block. With the sights available on a traditional ML shots past 150. Are pretty iffy. Tang sights? Hooded front sights? What about laser range finders? Cause your gonna need one. I have also hunted quite a bit with BPCRs and even with a nicely accurate such rifle in 45-100 or such shooting from cross sticks its not that hard to miss even an elk at extended ranges. I have done if from a simple bobble or a friend of mine years ago missed a BIG YNP bull at 425 from simple range estimation errors and we are and at the time were well experienced. But as the range gets extended the trajectory gets very steep and when there is nothing but the animal out there to give a hint as to range its very easy to goof the shot simply through a trick of lighting or color. And I am pretty well experienced in BPCR at ranges to at least 600 yards aand have shot “gong“ matches past 1000. Also I have, for example, hunted Antelope with a tradition ML successfully for decades. Where I often hunt, and I am a stalker, I don’t sit in a blind by some trail, there is often no cover other than rolling prairie and maybe some hills and grass. You gotta know how to hunt. And I hunt public land almost exclusively. Have I made a few 150 yard shots on animals, sure, but at 72 my eyes are not what they were when I was in my 20s and 30s. I have made successful shots from standing on deer, with a FL, no choice I prefer sitting out prone when shooting animals to 100 or more at times. My shooting eye got so bad that I had to stop hunting with open sights for a few years and went to a brass suppository rifle with a scope. But they fixed my eye, pretty much, and I shot a WT doe at a about 20 yards in a creek bottom with my swivel breech. Yeah I walked up on them and got a shot. So I have shot probably 100 various deer, Antelope and Elk with a round ball. They almost never stay in I suspect that I could count the ones that don‘t pass through on one hand and tow of these were pistol shot, actually I thing it was 6 total. For exmaple, back when my folks still had some land in Montana I was hunting on the school lease and say an antelope buck bedded in a coolie (thats a draw or what ever for Eastern types) so I sneak down there knowing he must be hurt, he gets up at maybe 20-25 yards and I shoot him with a 6” barreled FL pistol 50 cal 45 gr os FFF. It passed through and put up such a dirt plume that I thought I had somehow missed. He took a couple of steps and piled. He had been shot throught the mouth from the side by some modern and was pretty messed up. I shot another dying but still alive mule deer buck at an angle from shoulder to diaphragm missing the big bones and was at the off side hide at the diaphragm. This little pistol at 800 fps, yeah I had a Chronograph over 40 years ago, in baffle board tests, would give about the same penetration at 25 yards as my rifles a 50 and 54, would at 175-200. And the Maxi-ball, the reason for the baffle board tests, did about 30% more. But since the RB at normal ML ranges almost always passed through what was the point of the Maxi-Ball? It was to appeal to people who did not know any better. AND from various reports it was a very poor killer and resulted in deer at least escaping and in one case the guy killed the deer the NEXT year with a bullet track though its lungs. I have a friend in Canada who, along with his brother gave up on conicals altogether. And who watched another hunter blow him do a one shot kill in a moose at 175 yards with a 54 RB. No stern chase required. Finally the risk part involves two factors, first the early rash of T_C “Hawkens” that failed when using the Maxi (may have been one with the RB) and there were a number of them and people were hurt. They were getting barrels from the wrong source. And reports of friends hunting with or meeting hunters in the field with the Maxi partly protruding from the muzzle since they did not stay put. The three of them were using the things and one had this problem. Same guys that finally gave them up for the RB. The US military was very familiar with this phenomenon and this, I believe, is why proofing of rifle muskets involved a Minie ball spaced off the powder. They never could make them work for a cavalry carbine since even the smoothbores would unload themselves when loaded with paper cartridges when slung.
For reference see:
”A Hunters Wandering In Africa” by Selous
“The Sporting Rifle and It’s Projectiles” by Forsythe
“Wild Beasts and Their Ways“ and “With Rifle and Hound In Ceylon” by Sir Samuel Baker
“The Gun and Its Development” 1896 by W.W. Greener. He talks of MLs shooting conicals not killing as well.
”Firearms of the American West 1803-1865” Garavaglia and Worman
And I almost forgot.
”Pondoro” by John Taylor. Specifically the “More Elephant Stories“ chapter.
”The Oregon Trail” by Francis Parkman where his guide (whose name I could not spell without digging out the book) kills two buffalo in two shots at 175 yards. Remember the Buffalo hunters of the 1870s thought that 2-3 shots per animal with more powerful brass suppository guns was a good average. But they would intentionally gut shoot some to keep them from running.
Now having hunted with a wide variety of firearms and quite a bit with round balls, some few with a couple of American military service rifles, several different BPCR calibers and case lengths and other brass suppository types from pretty anemic to pretty powerful and having guided hunters for Elk and deer. I will tell you this SHOT PLACEMENT trumps power. Penetration? As Forsythe states it only need be ”adequate” since in most cases on deer sized animals a 50-54-58-67 pure lead RB give about 30” of penetration what’s the problem? They will kill, from both historical and contemporary experience a wide range of critters efficiently at ranges exceeding many shooters capability with traditional sights. Will a PROPERLY DESIGNED conical or cylindrical work? Sure. Shot critters with them, just not in a ML.
Finally if you miff the shot with ANYTHING or go for a “Texas Heart Shot” as some might call it, you will have problems no matter what you are shooting.
View attachment 131084View attachment 131085View attachment 131086View attachment 131087View attachment 131088View attachment 131089View attachment 131090View attachment 131091View attachment 131092

to use a Round ball for game animals out West- you would be,Well Not in agreement with at all .

Nothing Wrong with use of a Peep sight on a Hawken/Renegade and Conicals. I like My Sharps yet prefer The Hawken/Renegade.

I’m sorry for the Long winded Post/ I don’t want to seem like I’m writing a Book here as the all knowing .

Like I previously state- To each there own.
And there are more than one or two guys who prefer traditional muzzleloaders with peeps/Lazer range finders and conicals. Ethical and successful hunters in my opinion. Just ask member @Idahoron

I recently purchased a Gm Lrh Barrel for my Hawken- Complete with fiber optics/ and peep in do time

for this very reason. I prefer it to my Sharps…. Thank you very much

 

[gunpa]

I think the Civil War showed how deadly conicals were on humans, sometimes 3 or 4 in a row. They were also deadly on a lot of horses. Round balls will do the job but beyond 100 yards and for fast reloading I'll take a conical. For everyday shooting I'll take round balls and light recoil, thank you.

 

[RIDE-RED350R]

Absolutely RBs can and do get the job done. But conicals get it done better, science and physics back that up. And no I'm not referring to something being "more dead" with one or the other. But longer and heavier conicals make the platform generally more capable in every metric.

Yes the deer I've taken with PRB did die. But in both cases the animal struggled longer than those I took with maxi.

At the end of the day, shoot what you like, I have no issue with those who are happy to use PRB for taking game as the vast majority do it ethically. But that said, there is nothing magical about a muzzle loading rifle that makes a RB as ballistically effective as a maxi.

Interesting discussion and I enjoy it. Cheers

 

[Relic shooter]

Combo ten ring shooter & big game rifle.

I also enjoy shooting slugs with whitworth type rifles but my all time favorite rifle has been a rather plain original Danish built .70 cal. Jaeger by I.C. Haugaard.
Research with the museum in Denmark showed Haugaard was a master military armorer but he also made a few hunting rifles.
This rifle features deeper .018 deep 7 grove fast-twist rifling that was designed to shoot 400+grain. patched round balls very accurately with just 85 gr. of 2f out to 200 +yds with use of the well calibrated flip-up rear express sight.

I can honestly state that this rifle has produced the tightest groups of any muzleloading rifle I've owned over my past 50 + years of competitive shooting & collecting.
I'm sure most who also shoot original European firearms have noticed that most of their sporting rifles have similar rifling characteristics or feature a poly-grove style rifling that is somewhat shallower.
NOTE; I hunted with my rifle capped, the cord off of the trigger guard carries a rubber-cushion with a hole that provides a firm bushing around the capped nipple to protect against accidental discharge if the rifle was dropped.
Much safer than relying on any tumbler's half-cock notch.

 

[Dphar1950]

This as been a hoot. I mistakenly thought it was about TRADITIONAL Muzzleloading. I shoulda knew better.
I just deleted what would have been my last post on this after recalling one of Mark Twains sayings. It‘s good advice. Good advice and I am abiding it.

 

[Africa58double]

Just becouse A Flintlock has a Faster twist .54 rebore done becouse that person wants a more robust projectile - dosnt mean it’s not traditional anymore. Or maybe a peep sight is added to a Flintlock- for A hunter who’s eyesight has diminished.

If Absolute traditional was the Requirement in this sport/Hobby- You would have a smaller amount of enthusiasts and the Sport/hobby could Extinguish over time from lack of enthusiasm.

I’d rather see Guys that use some modern Projectiles like the No excuses than lose interest in the Sport. If this Subject on No excuse .54 bullets is offensive to you- Why be involved in the subject thread?

It’s been insightful- yet why be so Anti Lead Bullet Percussion/Flintlock - and require Round ball.

This as been a hoot. I mistakenly thought it was about TRADITIONAL Muzzleloading. I shoulda knew better.
I just deleted what would have been my last post on this after recalling one of Mark Twains sayings. It‘s good advice. Good advice and I am abiding it.

 

[RIDE-RED350R]

Yeah, the original post was asking if anyone had any experience with a heavy maxi. Somewhere along the lines it got turned into a PRB sales pitch.

 

[treetophunter]

.58 is Getting there

Where is a good place to find a .58 cal mound?

 

[Africa58double]

Where is a good place to find a .58 cal mound?

I really like the Lee R.E.A.L Bullet mold. I cast it at 8Bhn and water quench. Very accurate for me.
If I had a .54 Mzldr ,I’d certainly try a Lee R.E.A.L in that also. Great projectile!

 

[nkbj]

I really like the 33" long minie barrel on the .69 bore Fremont.
You guys make me ponder having a minie barrel and ladder sights for the 42" M1816.
Then I could use the paper patched in it too.

 

[Africa58double]

Longer distance is something that is needed on occasion. I’m more of a Hunter than a shooter- so crawling on ground to get 75 yards closer is fine with me

Though imagine you see a trophy animal and it’s distance is around 165 yards-maybe 175. You have practiced a lot at that distance and know your rifle. You can either shoot or chance spooking game by getting closer.

Wouldn’t you want to have a Conical .54 that retains the most energy and sectional density, compared to a Round ball … at that distance?

I want a exit wound as I certainly don’t prefer as much tracking to occur. A 54 conical would assist with that instead of a Prb at distance.

A No excuses .54 525gr would retain proper energy/Sd at 150yard+ distance- sufficient for large game.

Prb is fine for certain applications- I Cast Hard Round balls and patch them in My .58 Double rifle- very accurate. Heck with each barrel I can Double ball load- Awesome Hog/Bear Gun

Yet with my Hawken/Renegade rifles I prefer a heavy conical if able.

 

[treetophunter]

Thank you. This forum is incredible with the amount of information that is shared.

 

[Howie1968]

Yes I've got about 5 boxes of them I shoot them out of my Lyman gph and my 2 Lyman deer stalkers . The reason I went with these is they offer in size .541 and .542. Mr Dave I have the lynan stopped making the .535 gr as he stated he broke the mold those only came in size .540 which was 2 loose For my .542 bored Lyman's but worked great in my .54 white mountain mag and my .54 greyhawk.
Now the .485 gr I went with the .542 size and I went with 90 grains pyrodex P.i have the lynan 57 gph sight on the rear and globe on the front with Lee shavers inserts. I do you a wonder wad under the bullet.i was able to get 1 inch groups at 50 and some groups in the 1.5 to 2.0 inches at 100. As soon as it cools down I plan on hunting a pig with it.im not a great shot I rarely shoot past 50 yards target or hunting

 

[Howie1968]

Longer distance is something that is needed on occasion. I’m more of a Hunter than a shooter- so crawling on ground to get 75 yards closer is fine with me

Though imagine you see a trophy animal and it’s distance is around 165 yards-maybe 175. You have practiced a lot at that distance and know your rifle. You can either shoot or chance spooking game by getting closer.

Wouldn’t you want to have a Conical .54 that retains the most energy and sectional density, compared to a Round ball … at that distance?

I want a exit wound as I certainly don’t prefer as much tracking to occur. A 54 conical would assist with that instead of a Prb at distance.

A No excuses .54 525gr would retain proper energy/Sd at 150yard+ distance- sufficient for large game.

Prb is fine for certain applications- I Cast Hard Round balls and patch them in My .58 Double rifle- very accurate. Heck with each barrel I can Double ball load- Awesome Hog/Bear Gun

Yet with my Hawken/Renegade rifles I prefer a heavy conical if able.

Ive spoke of .54 roundballs vs Conicals on giant boar hogs many times I just don't get consistent pass throughs on the big ones with a round ball the .535 gr no excuses hammers them passes through with no bullet to be found. Not knocking the roundball because I love shooting them but if I'm using roundballs on big I'm using my .58 or my .72 double. A .54 roundballs does great on the 200 lovers but when they get past the 300s I'm using Conicals and heavy ones