Non-Firing replica 1766 Charleville Infantry Musket

[FlinterNick]

You don’t have numbers because they aren’t there.
I understand where you’re coming from. I had the same prejudice against curry poppers, but I’ve been doing this since the 1970s, and remember when all this was said against CVA, and Miroku. I see post on this forum of how good those Miroku besses are and some are pretty proud of their ‘Mountain Rifles’
Your choice today for many muskets is custom or Indian, cause pedisoli doesn’t make one.
But more then that the Indian guns are as close to the originals then Perdisoli are, in some cases closer
Before I slapped down the money I went looking. I could not find one instance of an Indian gun barrel failure that wasn’t user error

Sure they are, call Birmingham and ask, they’ll be the first ones to tell you that Indian muzzle loader tolerance rate is low because of how they’re made.

 

[hawkeye2]

FlinterNick, I'm not going to call Birmingham but do you have a link to any documentation of the Indian gun failure rates?

 

[FlinterNick]

All I can say is people love BAD press. They have their favorites and non-favorites. I've built over 200 guns, fixed, repaired, restored and made non-firing to firing guns from everywhere and every time period, including India. Now, In India, just as everywhere, you have your reliable manufacturers, and your garage manufacturers. The guns from Military Heritage are fine guns as far as India guns go. Once properly maintenance and vented, like all guns when used properly, are as safe as any other. I've also seen India guns from garage builders so bad the barrel had a seam down the center. I'd swear it was made from a water pipe, so I refused to touch it and told the owner so. I've seen Remington and Browning shotguns blow up due to improper use and care. I was standing next a fella who had a S&W .38sp revolver blow up. It was determined he was an inexperienced hand loader and double loaded his rounds with Red Dot. He wanted the pistol to be more powerful. All these where from MORON GUN OWNERS. I, personally, have never seen an India musket fail if properly used and maintained. Any gun, ANY GUN, will eventually fail if abused. Semper Fi.

PS. Yes, I do own one that I hang on my fireplace. And yes, I do take it down and shoot it. No, the barrel is not rusty. I antiqued it.

View attachment 181574

That m1717 looks heavy … way too heavy.

 

[toot]

All I can say is people love BAD press. They have their favorites and non-favorites. I've built over 200 guns, fixed, repaired, restored and made non-firing to firing guns from everywhere and every time period, including India. Now, In India, just as everywhere, you have your reliable manufacturers, and your garage manufacturers. The guns from Military Heritage are fine guns as far as India guns go. Once properly maintenance and vented, like all guns when used properly, are as safe as any other. I've also seen India guns from garage builders so bad the barrel had a seam down the center. I'd swear it was made from a water pipe, so I refused to touch it and told the owner so. I've seen Remington and Browning shotguns blow up due to improper use and care. I was standing next a fella who had a S&W .38sp revolver blow up. It was determined he was an inexperienced hand loader and double loaded his rounds with Red Dot. He wanted the pistol to be more powerful. All these where from MORON GUN OWNERS. I, personally, have never seen an India musket fail if properly used and maintained. Any gun, ANY GUN, will eventually fail if abused. Semper Fi.

PS. Yes, I do own one that I hang on my fireplace. And yes, I do take it down and shoot it. No, the barrel is not rusty. I antiqued it.

View attachment 181574

it looks rely fine hanging over the fire place! and that hand hewed mantle it is hanging on is the frosting on the cake! is it period?

 

[tenngun]

Last gun I built was a sitting Fox smooth rifle. Partial pre carved stock, rough brass furniture, barrel channel and ramrod hole cut.
A hundred and fifty hours later I had me a gun.
I didn’t proof it.
Do you think if it failed Sitting Fox wouldn’t have said ‘we have no control about building or how it was loaded’
Would Centermark stand behind the kit they sold? Or Track?
I’m not a gunsmith, I’m not even a good amateur, maybe I can do as well as a twelve year old apprentice…. If he was drunk.
But
From my first build I never once feared for my safety as long as I knew it was a reasonable charge with a ball all the way down and the barrel clear.

 

[gunnyr]

might as well be arguing the merits of Blondes and Redheads!

Not meaning to make light of the subject of the original post , but I like both Blonds and Redheads.
just sayin
GunnyR

 

[FlinterNick]

I have an indian made Charleville musket in my shop from military heritage.

Giving a thourough inspection.

Without unbreeching the gun, did a visual inspection with a camera.

Breech plug is a flange type and is not shouldered to the inside of the bore, well i can’t say its a safety problem because the gun has been fired, however i can say this is not a typical method of breeching a black powder musket, not even in the original style.

Plug is very short too, too short for it to be without a connecting / seating shoulder.

The barrel is essentially breeched the same way you’d connect a water or gas line…. Sorry folks this isn’t right.

Lock does not spark at all, frizzen is soft and the steel appears to be in the range of a very mild carbon steel like 1045, very low carbon.

All metal parts are nailed in place which means you really shouldn’t drift any pins.

Butt plate is glued on with some type of mastic.

Was asked to refinish the stock and polish the parts. Sending this back as the cost of the work far exceeds to the value of the piece.

 

[FlinterNick]

FlinterNick, I'm not going to call Birmingham but do you have a link to any documentation of the Indian gun failure rates?

They (consultant) said the failure rate is around 25% but woudlnt name the suppliers.

 

[Pete G]

…and the road goes on forever and the party never ends.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I have an indian made Charleville musket in my shop from military heritage.

Giving a thourough inspection.

Without unbreeching the gun, did a visual inspection with a camera.

Breech plug is a flange type and is not shouldered to the inside of the bore, well i can’t say its a safety problem because the gun has been fired, however i can say this is not a typical method of breeching a black powder musket, not even in the original style.

Plug is very short too, too short for it to be without a connecting / seating shoulder.

The barrel is essentially breeched the same way you’d connect a water or gas line…. Sorry folks this isn’t right.

Lock does not spark at all, frizzen is soft and the steel appears to be in the range of a very mild carbon steel like 1045, very low carbon.

All metal parts are nailed in place which means you really shouldn’t drift any pins.

Butt plate is glued on with some type of mastic.

Was asked to refinish the stock and polish the parts. Sending this back as the cost of the work far exceeds to the value of the piece.

Why do people buy these things?

 

[vintovka]

Why do people buy these things?

Cause good ones cost so much???

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

I’d avoid them, for a few reasons, which i won’t elaborate on too much. Not saying you can’t shoot them or love them, don’t take it personal.

1. Overall Quality; these Indian made muskets have a lot of quality issues, its rare that you’ll get a musket in top quality.
2. Authenticity, if you want a musket just to have a musket I think its fine, however you said you wanted a ‘Charleville’ I can assure you that any Indian made Charleville shares very little in common with an actual Charleville Musket, especially a 1766 pattern.
3. Hopefully you’re a strong fellow, because most Indian made muskets are overweight by 3-5 lbs.
4. Value; Indian made muskets do not appreciate in value, they often will sell for far less then their were purchased, so antipcate trading them away for items of lesser value.
5. Parts; All replacement parts need to be custom made and fit, you will almost never find a viable supplier of replacement parts.
6. Defarbing: making an Indian made gun authentic will cost almost as much as the gun itself, its a money pit dont do it.
7. Poor Locks: The locks are problematic.
8. Teak Stocks: Teak is not an ideal gunstock wood, its brittle and closed grained, it splits, shatters and peals. It would be the equivalent of stocking the gun with locust wood, great for decking and fetching but bad for guns.
9. Barrels: the barrels tend to be heavier, some are drawn over mandrel welded, I’d avoid any with DOM barrels, only hydraulic or solid carbon steel tubing.

Some very good points.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Final thought on Indian Muskets.....be sure to drink your Ovaltine....

 

[akroguy]

I have an indian made Charleville musket in my shop from military heritage.

Giving a thourough inspection.

Without unbreeching the gun, did a visual inspection with a camera.

Breech plug is a flange type and is not shouldered to the inside of the bore, well i can’t say its a safety problem because the gun has been fired, however i can say this is not a typical method of breeching a black powder musket, not even in the original style.

Plug is very short too, too short for it to be without a connecting / seating shoulder.

The barrel is essentially breeched the same way you’d connect a water or gas line…. Sorry folks this isn’t right.

Lock does not spark at all, frizzen is soft and the steel appears to be in the range of a very mild carbon steel like 1045, very low carbon.

All metal parts are nailed in place which means you really shouldn’t drift any pins.

Butt plate is glued on with some type of mastic.

Was asked to refinish the stock and polish the parts. Sending this back as the cost of the work far exceeds to the value of the piece.

Wow...this puts a nail in the coffin for me ever wanting to get one to fix up.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

I have an indian made Charleville musket in my shop from military heritage.

Giving a thourough inspection.

Without unbreeching the gun, did a visual inspection with a camera.

Breech plug is a flange type and is not shouldered to the inside of the bore, well i can’t say its a safety problem because the gun has been fired, however i can say this is not a typical method of breeching a black powder musket, not even in the original style.

Plug is very short too, too short for it to be without a connecting / seating shoulder.

The barrel is essentially breeched the same way you’d connect a water or gas line…. Sorry folks this isn’t right.

Lock does not spark at all, frizzen is soft and the steel appears to be in the range of a very mild carbon steel like 1045, very low carbon.

All metal parts are nailed in place which means you really shouldn’t drift any pins.

Butt plate is glued on with some type of mastic.

Was asked to refinish the stock and polish the parts. Sending this back as the cost of the work far exceeds to the value of the piece.

I'm sorry to say you are giving bad information. I have vented many of the India made muskets from Military Heritage, and they are all threaded breech plugs. It sounds like you didn't try to remove the breech plug to see if it is threaded or not, or perhaps the one you have isn't from Military Heritage. This one in this pic is from MH. It's a 1717 French Musket. I pulled the BP and notched it. Then vented the barrel. I've shot this many times and it shoots great. I did have to harden the frizzen and tune the lock, however the BP is threaded. I would like to see a pic of the musket in question and the makers marks on the bottom of the barrel. Semper Fi.

 

[Brokennock]

A couple of these latest post point out something I said to someone recently about these India made guns. They might be "good enough" as is for some folks, completely unacceptable for others, and for some a good enough starting point for a low cost workable gun if they have the skills to overcome the flaws. Different people have different standards. Some of these guns, regardless of the "brand"/importer/seller, I get the impression vary widely in build and parts quality from gun to gun.
Some people may find these acceptable if they work well, but might lack the ability or tools or place to work, to fix things like soft frizzens or breach plugs not installed correctly.

Maybe the old adage, "buyer beware" applies?

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

FlinterNick,
Obviously has a personal grudge against India Made Muskets. Please don't take his word a gospel. I own a couple India made muskets and shoot them regularly. Also, I have reworked many, many more. Yes, I have run into the musket that looks like it was made in someone's garage. They are out there. However, if you buy from a reputable seller, i.e., Military Heritage, Veteran Arms, Loyalist Arms and Middlesex Village Trading Co. You can get a safe musket for a decent price. I have reworked many Military Heritage muskets in my time and can say they are safe muskets as long as you use them safely. MH sells theirs unvented. The others sell their ready to shoot. Go to the Middlesex Village site. He has over 100 muskets waiting to be shipped at any one time. Pete keeps a published list available for all to see. As long as I've known Pete, he's never had an issue with his India muskets. Neither has Charles at Veteran Arms, or Blair at Loyalist Arms or Robert at Military Heritage. I have had many POS come across my bench. They are easy to spot. But Plate is glued not screwed. The parts are nailed together. The wood is rough. The lock is **** and lastly the barrel is no more than an old, converted water pipe. You can still see the seam down the barrel. Yet, given all these RED FLAGS, some moron will still see fit to drill a vent hole and shoot the dang thing. If you get an India Musket from one of these sellers, you will get a safe, shootable musket. It may need some tuning and adjustment, but don't they all. Semper Fi.

PS. If anyone here buys an India Made Musket that needs to be vented and/or other work done, you can have it shipped directly to me from the supplier and I will safety inspect the musket. Pull the barrel, pull the breech plug and notch it if needed. Seal the breech plug. Vent the barrel. Tune the lock and harden the frizzen for $50 + shipping it to you. I will not do any repairs if the musket is unsafe. I've reworked many India Muskets. I know what I'm doing, and I know if it's made by an established maker or someone in their garage. When you get your musket. you will know it's been tested and safe. I will also include load data for you to follow.

This came from Middlesex Village ready to shoot.

This one came from Military Heritage. I had to vent this one.

Thos one I bought from Loyalist Arms. The stock was broken at the wrist, so I got it half price. I'm in the process of repairing the stock and removing excess wood. I also had to vent it.

This is a Dublin Castle Brown Bess from Loyalist Arms. Ready to shoot.

I got this Club Butt from Loyalist Arms. I had to vent it and do other repairs, so I got it half price.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I'm sorry to say you are giving bad information. I have vented many of the India made muskets from Military Heritage, and they are all threaded breech plugs. It sounds like you didn't try to remove the breech plug to see if it is threaded or not, or perhaps the one you have isn't from Military Heritage. This one in this pic is from MH. It's a 1717 French Musket. I pulled the BP and notched it. Then vented the barrel. I've shot this many times and it shoots great. I did have to harden the frizzen and tune the lock, however the BP is threaded. I would like to see a pic of the musket in question and the makers marks on the bottom of the barrel. Semper Fi.

View attachment 193865

YIKES! That looks nothing like a French 1717. It's too fat by 50%. Have you ever handled an original '17?

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

YIKES! That looks nothing like a French 1717. It's too fat by 50%. Have you ever handled an original '17?

That is one of the hallmarks of an India Musket. Extra wood. They use either Teak, Mango or Rosewood. All oily and heavy woods. Some I will slim down, some I don't. The 1717 I like the way it is. Semper Fi.

 

[FlinterNick]

That is one of the hallmarks of an India Musket. Extra wood. They use either Teak, Mango or Rosewood. All oily and heavy woods. Some I will slim down, some I don't. The 1717 I like the way it is. Semper Fi.

They use teak or North Indian rosewood. Neither is suitable gunstock wood … it’s way too hard and brittle and doesn’t finish well.

It’s also surplus teak which sometimes has been recycled from decking and ship planking.

They use a lot of wood because their attention to the details of the guns authenticity is lacking.