Non-indian made flintlock

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surrealpillow

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so I was thinking about getting a brown bess or a flintlock trade musket of some sort, but all i find really is the indian made ones. I was looking at osvaldo gatto has anyone had experience with them?

Thanks!
 
You need to look at www.dixiegunworks.com as they have a few Brown Bess Trade Guns and muskets. Also Track of the Wolf has some too. I'm sure there are others also.
 
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Have you checked out the Italian gun made by Pedersoli? Are you sure you are seeking a smoothbore, and not a rifle?
 
North Star West makes great Trade guns and a nice Officer 16ga Brown Bess-like musket for about the price of an Italian BB
 
My reason for asking is that while Brown Besses are nice, if you are a re-enactor, That 75 caliber is a bit huge for most any other activity, like hunting deer. There are Trade guns, and fowlers available in various gauges, if you want a smoothbore, that are much easier on recoil, and better suited to hunting. I recommend using a 20 gauge, either in smoothbore, or, if you intend to hunt dangerous game- rifle, as about the limit in caliber. Inside the effective shooting range of smoothbores, without sights, a 20 gauge pure lead ball will drive completely through a deer, even at modest velocity.

Effective shooting range with any smoothbore is going to be inside 75 yards. The ball will kill at many times that distance, but without sights, you can aim that well. A smoothbore throws " knuckleballs", basically, and much beyond 50-70 yards, they begin losing their accuracy, no matter how good a gun/load combination you have.

OPen sights on a .62 caliber rifle will let you shoot well out past 100 yds, but the barrel will have to be sturdy if you are going to feed it lots of powder. That size ball kills without high velocity. However, some shooters want to shoot massive amounts of powder , and deal with the recoil. I think that is fine- but have someone build you a 9-12 lb. rifle, in that caliber, and consider some kind of muzzle brake, or recoil suppressor system for the barrel to limit the recoil you will experience, to avoid developing a King's size FLINCH. 80-90 grains of FFg powder in a .62 caliber gun is all you will need on Deer. If you insist on using 150 grain or larger charges, expect the gun to be dangerous at both ends! :rotf: :surrender: :thumbsup:
 
Yes I think your right and I'm leaning more towards a .62 caliber fowler/trade gun. target shooting and small game is all I'd be using it for, so a .75 would be a bit of an overkill i suppose. thanks for the replies
 
One of the greatest, and I believe, NICEST surprises I had when I began shooting Muzzle loaders many years ago was to learn that ML ballistics had NO relation to Modern, Smokeless cartridge ballistics. I didn't want to believe it of course, so my education came slowly. But, before I got into owning and shooting my own MLers, I served a couple of deer seasons as a Deer Checker at a county check station. I checked in hundreds of deer, but only a few of them were taken with Mlers back then( Late '60s) But, the hunters who took those deer were very willing to answer questions, and I was able- actually had to-- examine closely the wound channels on the animals, counting entrance and exit holes. I never saw a deer taken with a MLer using PRB that had more than ONE Entrance wound. I saw many deer killed with shotgun slugs that had multiple Entrance wounds, and a few exit wounds- almost all being made by 12 gauge slugs. I had a few deer killed with 20 gauge slugs, but by far the most common firearm used was a shotgun shooting foster style slugs.

Those 12 gauge bores are .72 caliber- actually .729" in diameter. The slugs make a big hole. If they hit any kind of bone, they expand. Sometimes, hunters would show me recovered slugs from their deer, also. The vast majority of deer were being taken at well under 50 yards. Some of the deer with multiple wounds were shot as they ran by a stand or stands of hunters, and that is why they had so many hits. There were far too many leg wounds, and peripheral hits. But, even those deer shot through the lungs might take a second shot. Not with a PRB.

If you read the Hunting section on this forum, you will get a good education on how well a performance you can expect from various calibers.

On deer, any caliber from .54( 28 gauge) on up should be expected to put a ball completely through the animal, leaving a wide primary wound channel. Most balls are NOT recovered. The balls begin at 230 grains for the .54s, which is a bit more than 1/2 oz of lead, and go up from there. Its the weight, and the thin skin and bones of the deer that allow such deep penetration- NOT velocity( as would be required with modern bullets).

If you will look up Bob Spenser's Website, The black powder notebook, and read his articles on the guns he uses, including his own articles, and a second by V.M. Starr, the dean of shotguns, you should get a good education on loads, choice of shot for different species, and expected performance.

I shoot a 12 gauge DB shotgun, cylinder bore, and it has taken Pheasant, partridge, and dove. I have a 20 gauge fowler, with a rear sight on it, that was made for me to do double duty- on deer, and on birds, including turkey. The Fowler is a flintlock. With FFg powder, recoil is more a shove, rather than a sharp crack to the shoulder. I am still working on loads with the fowler, but I have achieved some very nice patterns with the 12 gauge using modest loads.

That is the other secret about shooting BP shotguns: With modern shotguns and smokelss powder, using choked barrels, and plastic shotcups, you have to increase velocity to get tighter patterns at longer ranges, in general. With Black Powder, and particularly with cylinder bore( NO CHOKE) shotguns, you tighten patterns by REDUCING your powder charges. You can tighten patterns up by buffeting the shot, and using shotcups made from index card stock, or several layers of paper, to protect the outer pellets from rubbing against the bore, but you are only going to get about 5-10 more yards at best doing this. BP shotguns are basically a 30 yard gun, unless you use choke, either " jug choke", or the modern muzzle choke, fixed, or screw-in.

Personally, I intend to use my fowler for just about everything, except clay target matches where doubles may be thrown. Then my DB 12 will come out. If the price of some of the newer non-toxic shot comes down some, so I can live with my budget buying some of it, I might still take my 12 ga. out goose hunting, and maybe duck hunting, where having that second shot will be very nice. My fowler will "shine" being used for everything else.

I usually hunt with friends who take modern guns, and I can let them take the other birds that get up while I am reloading. :thumbsup: Unless a bird goes up right in front of a shooter, we rotate who moves in on pointed birds, so that everyone gets a shot. There is something very satisfying in shooting a bird that holds tight enough to allow you to get set, and take it on the rise after the flush. A 24 or 20 gauge shotgun is just about perfect for that kind of shooting. :hmm: :v :hatsoff:
 
surrealpillow said:
Yes I think your right and I'm leaning more towards a .62 caliber fowler/trade gun. target shooting and small game is all I'd be using it for, so a .75 would be a bit of an overkill i suppose. thanks for the replies
There were very few "trade muskets" in reality, based on everything I've heard and read. Trade guns were generally much lighter than muskets, and ran in the 24ga± range. There are more options than just 20ga in between the large musket and the smaller trade bores. Some of us consider the one-ounce bore - .66", 16ga - to be the perfect middle ground.

Have fun investigating the possibilities and sorting out what suits you.

Joel
 
Don't know if you can fire them but you can get an ORIGINAL Brown Bess from the Nepal cache for just about the same price. Do an online search. They are sold at IMI.
 
dyemaker said:
Don't know if you can fire them but you can get an ORIGINAL Brown Bess from the Nepal cache for just about the same price. Do an online search. They are sold at IMI.


Actually, the vendor is IMA and they have the "Original P-1796 3rd Model" muskets available at:
http://www.ima-usa.com/product_info.php/cPath/29_114/products_id/1502

They were part of the fascinating cache of arms that came from Nepal a few years ago. The so-called 3rd Model BB they have is not quite original though, the stocks are new but all other parts are original with Nepalese markings. Read the description carefully and you will have an accurate description of the gun they have for sale.
 
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Yes, it is a restored 3rd model India pattern. Read the smallprint at the bottom. You would need it ok'ed by a gunsmith.
 
surrealpillow said:
so I was thinking about getting a brown bess or a flintlock trade musket of some sort, but all i find really is the indian made ones. I was looking at osvaldo gatto has anyone had experience with them?

Thanks!

Pedersoli makes a Bess that is actually meant to be fired.
There are trade guns available as well if you look.

Might try the Track of the Wolf web site they have a lot of firearms for sale custom and otherwise.

Dan
 
Ironically, with a new stock and a "probably British India"- made barrel, you are getting an Indian musket in more ways than one! :shocked2: :grin:

"I know not what course others may take..." but I'd rather shoot a modern India-made musket than one of these originals. Your opinion and mileage may, of course, vary.
 
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I bought and put together this trade musket from Dixie. It's a Pedersoli.

There is enough wood to really jazz it up if you want to, or you can leave it plain like I did. It took about 8 hours to complete as it's ready to assemble with a little work. All the work is in the stock as the inletting is done for you.

If you wanted to practice a little relief carving, this would be a great project as it wouldn't matter too much if you screwed anything up.

It was 650.00

Dan
 
I know Pedersoli says the trade gun dates from 1750's but I think it (basically) is more Barnett style 1816.
Opinions?
David
 
I'm sure many people will disagree with me on this, however. i would not buy another pedersoli flintlock if you paid me too. percussion is fine. my reason being, unless they have change the way they make the breeches on their guns, they have a patent breech, mine fouled very easily and miss fires were very very common. so much so that i eventually rebarreled my pennsylvania with a GM barrel. the patent breech is fine with percussion because the cap can force the fire a little easier into a fouled breech area than a flint can. save your money and buy a quality smoothie with a good barrel from one of the american makers. if you want to pracice relief carving just make a practice stock and rasp off the carving and make a new one instead of spending 1/2 a grand on a mediocre gun you really didn't want anyway. IMO.
 
Medic

Perhaps I don't understand the term, but the patent breech, as I understand it, has the flash channel integral to the breech plug rather than as a part of the barrel as you would find in a flintlock vent, or a drum threaded into the hole from a flintlock vent. I know that patent breech systems can be found on a lot of hooked breech weapons. But, again I may be mistaken, if the vent liner is drilled into the side of the barrel and sits in front of the breech plug, that's not a patent breech is it?

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to the definition of the patent breech so that I better understand why it is my Pedersoli isn't supposed to work right.

Regards

Dan
 
dan- you are correct, if the vent is in the barrel in front of the breech plug face it is not a patent breech. please keep in mind my pennsy is about 20 years old now, the pedersoli patent breech on it was like this. the bore came down to about 1/2" in front of the vent, there was then a much smaller about .30 cal vertical hole that was in the center of the bore. this small hole was a 1/2" deep then made a 90 degree turn into the vent/flashole. this whole setup was in the breech plug of the rifle. that little vertical hole would foul in about 6-7 shots then a miss fire would happen despite fervent vent picking. the only way that i found to completely clean the setup was to take the gun down to the barrel and then flush with hot water, after many years of this the threads around the vent began to corrode, i noticed fouled water seeping out around the vent when cleaning, streaks of fouling from around the edges too when shooting. after years of haveing an unreliable rifle i changed the barrel with a proper IMO vent setup.
that said, i dearly pray that you do not have the same troubles with your gun, pedersoli is known to have high quality repro's especially their higher end guns. on an unrelated note, the lock on this rifle has always been a poor sparking lock, i just didn't know it untill i started useing locks from Land R and chambers. oh, and yes you are right in your understanding of patent breechs. make sense?
 
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