Non lead round balls -

[megasupermagnum]

Just some quick math, so feel free to correct me. Pure lead is about 11.35 g/cm3, pure tin 7.31 g/cm3, and 94% bismuth/6%tin alloy about 9.6 g/cm3. That makes bismuth alloy about 85% as dense as lead, and pure tin about 64% as dense as lead. In practical terms, if a .490" ball of pure lead is 177 grains, that same ball of bismuth alloy would be 150 grains, and the same ball of pure tin 113 grains.

Now that's a normal hunting caliber. Instead jump up to a 58 caliber, ..570" ball at 279 gr of pure lead, would be 178 gr of pure tin. There's nothing wrong with that. Tin is harder than pure lead, but not that much harder. About like 20-1 alloy. I've never tried it, but I would assume a pure tin ball would flatten out well just like a lead ball. I'd much rather shoot pure tin than bismuth alloy balls, although I will do everything in my power to never let that scenario happen to me.

The same as with bismuth alloy, I would go up In caliber with pure tin. No matter how you slice it, a 45 or 50 caliber that is superb with lead on animals, is going to be lackluster with any non-toxic ball. Instead of hoping to throw a whole bunch more powder behind it, go to a larger caliber, you will be miles ahead.

 

[Historian]

Megasupermagnum, Quick question sir?
Have you taken any large game with a bismuth/tin round ball alloy and if so what was that alloy mixture? If you have what was the game taken and was your experience positive or negative?
If not then your entire thesis is based on conjecture? Not actual field results. I am not trying to start an argument but you offer no actual field experience.
Here is some actual results from a friend that got back from Texas early last week. His friend has a 2500 acre ranch that he lets friends and relatives hunt on. My friend took his wife and oldest son for a deer and hog hunt. His wife shot a .300 Black Out (whatever that is), his son shot a Bolt Action Rem 270 and he shot his TVM Late Lancaster .54 Flintlock. His wife and son both took hogs and his wife dropped a nice fat doe as well. Next to the last day my friend dropped a 273 pound hog with a 45 yard broadside shot which was a complete pass through from left to right. His load was 110 grains of OE with a olive oil and beeswax patch wrapped over a caliber .53 Bismuth/Tin Round Ball ratio 95% Bismuth/5%Tin. I have known them for over 35 years and his wife is not prone to exaggerating. According to her the shot knocked the pig completely off it's feet onto it's back where it kicked it's legs about 4-5 times and expired. She was so shocked she let slip some choice unladylike language. After having seen the videos I was very impressed. My hogs have all been under 210 and his was considerably larger. I would compare the rifle shots like lightening strikes while the .54 Long Rifle shot looked like the pig was hit by a giant sledge hammer. The Bismuth Tin round ball did not break apart and vaperized the heart according to both of them. It also cleanly broke two ribs. The exit hole was about the size of a nickel. So overall pretty good performance and on par with what I have seen and heard from others using the balls I have cast for them over the last 6 years. However I am more interested now in trying a higher tin ratio alloy to facilitate more possible expansion after impact with soft tissues and bone matter. I may try upping the tin ratio to 20% or even 30% and see what that brings in the field this winter. Yes we need valid field results so we will know what works and what does not.

 

[megasupermagnum]

I already told you my exact position on the matter. The only bismuth bullets I've shot have been on targets. I was not impressed, and would not shoot them at a game animal unless it was an a caliber larger than normal. A 45-70 for example would be a good candidate for bismuth bullets. The 357 magnum, not so much.

I'm glad you and your friends are having good luck with them in muzzleloaders. Bismuth is not as good as lead is, that is all. All I'm trying to say is don't cast .440" balls for your favorite little flintlock and expect it to be flipping deer on their back.

 

[Nuthatch]

I hunt with a .50 and cast some roundball to use this year from a Bismuth/tin alloy. I've used a friend's Lee 6-cavity .480 mold with a sprue-cutter and it worked just fine. Afterward, I purchased a Marty's Arms 14-cavity mold that doesn't have a sprue cutter. The Lee comes out much cleaner looking since it has a sprue cutter. But the Marty's Arms mold, for whatever reason, drops them at a more consistent weight. I have to hand-cut the sprue and file it down a little. But they all have <1 grain deviation. With the Lee, I had plenty coming out over 5 grains around the average with 3 grains (+/- 1.5 grains) being more common. All were right around 140 grains with a .480 mold. Balls are measuring right around .482 so a 0.018 or even 0.02" patch works well. Comparing with ITX, which is around 150 grains, I'd call it close to even weight-wise. I've noticed no POI shift between lead, bismuth or ITX. I'm sure it's there. But at 50 yards with open sights, I don't notice any.

I'll be using the roundball on my hunt here in a few weeks. Last year, I used a Thor conical. The first shot was at about 70-80 yards and left 2 caliber-sized holes in the deer (zero expansion). That dropped the buck but wasn't the best shot placement. The second was shot at about 10 yards, fully expanded (about 1" in diameter) and was recovered under the off-side rib. Tissue damage from both shots looked to be about the same & was at least an inch or two bigger in diameter than the holes. I expect that these hard bismuth roundballs will perform similar to that unexpanded Thor -- 2 caliber-sized holes. And if I had to choose between great expansion and great penetration, I'd choose penetration. Which is partly why I am taking the roundball this year. The Thor is more than capable. But I don't like that the bullet failed to exit the ribcage on the second shot and failed to expand on the first. In either case, I'm comfortable with no expansion on a .50. Is it ideal? No. But I'd compare it with a low-velocity .30 centerfire, like a 30-30, even with no expansion on the .50. It's light light for bear, elk and bigger pigs. But still capable and plenty for deer. The .50 just comes "pre-expanded," as they say.

Personally, I feel that energy figures are pretty meaningless. I'm a numbers guy. But when it comes to hunting, I want 2 holes that bleed out fast before anything else. Hydrostatic shock and all that craziness is really just starting to ramp up well beyond traditional muzzeloader velocities. So it's a non-issue to me. If it can still hit the bullseye and penetrate, it can still kill just fine. Energy means more to me with centerfire than muzzleloaders.

Back to bismuth, shooting at the dirt, most of the recovered balls held together pretty well & weighed right abound 130 grains. No expansion and some fragmentation sometimes. I'm doing a water-jug test with a friend next week and can post my results from that. We plan to fire a lead ball into the jugs to get a baseline and then a Bismuth ball for comparison.

For most modern cartridges, using lead-free is great -- I'd never go back. Even high-quality lead bullets fragment at high speeds, as the jug tests and my own experience have shown me. I doubt it matters all that much for muzzleloaders, handguns and even black-powder cartridge guns where the speeds are low enough to not cause much if any fragmentation. But I'm open to experimenting. And I'm open to being proved wrong, which is part of why I'm helping do these jug tests.

 

[Nuthatch]

Jug tests went well. We only fired two shots -- one lead and one bismuth. It was a foggy day here in Central CA so humidity was around 95%. As a result, speeds were much slower than usual. Chronograph readings were right around 1450 fps vs 1600+ fps back in the warmer, dryer months.

Lead 177 gr swaged Hornady .490 with 0.018" ticking @ 70 grains Pyrodex
Bismuth 140 gr home cast .482 with 0.02" denim @ 70 grains Pyrodex
Target placed at 50 yards.

Speeds were about the same, which surprised me. Penetration was about the same for each. The lead made it into the 4th jug and the bismuth into the 5th. Both balls were recovered. The lead ball was flattened on the face but otherwise looked to have no visible expansion. Will get a caliper measurement to confirm but certainly no expansion can be seen. Bismuth ball showed no sign of being fired other than a small bit of rifle engraving. Neither showed any loss of weight either. It was hard to get a good reading in the field but the scale read 178 grains for lead and the 138 grains for bismuth.

In the lead vs Bismuth comparison, I'd call it a draw. I'd guess that if I had upped the powder charge under dryer conditions and gotten the lead up to around 1900 fps, then there may have been more noticeable expansion. 70 grains is on the lighter end but it's a good accurate load for that rifle & is what I plan to hunt with in a couple weeks.

It's only one data point but this confirms my hypothesis that when fired at traditional muzzleloader speeds, lead projectiles do not usually fragment, like modern centerfire bullets or in-lines. So, other than to satisfy a legal requirement to be lead-free, I don't see much advantage. The ball is likely to be recovered whole if at all. So the risk of contaminating gut piles is negligible in my mind. Being harder than lead, bismuth will likely out-penetrate a lead round ball but probably not by much. I don't know how much it will matter. Would a 140 grain bismuth ball penetrate as far as a 300 grain lead conical like a minie ball or REAL bullet? Maybe. But probably not. We'll need to do gel tests for that. Maybe another day...

 

[megasupermagnum]

That's very odd, and it makes me wonder if those Hornady balls are not so pure lead. You are running ballpark the speeds I get in my 54 caliber, and with a stick on wheel weight lead, which is almost pure, those balls will flatten out to a coin in water. My brother has a hardcast 63 caliber ball of clip on wheel weight that he fired into a deer at 1700 fps, and that too is flattened like crazy. I'm talking like 1"+ diameter, no calipers needed to see expansion.

As I've said, I have not used bismuth balls in a muzzleloader, but in a handgun, at even lower speeds, they tend to break apart. Maybe water isn't a good test, but fire into a dirt backstop, and most of what you find is chunks.

I will agree with you that the lead fragment hypothesis is outrageous. In the uber high velocity rifles like a 7mm rem mag, sure, lead ends up in odd places, as shown by X-ray tests. For anything less than that, no way. I've vary rarely recovered any bullets from animals, and the ones I have, have shown no loss of weight. You will never convince me a sub 2500 fps bullet is shedding lead particles into the guts, other than maybe the odd chunk if you hit bone.

 

[Nuthatch]

Megasupermagnum - id guess closer to 2k fps as when fragmentation starts to happen. But that’s not based on any data. I know for a fact that your standard core-lokt will turn to sand in a deer when fired at .243 and .30-06 velocities. But that’s up at 3k+ fps. From an enforcement and compliance standpoint, going all lead free makes things simple. Nuance just opens the door to confusion and complacency. So I get why it’s near-universal. Only air guns are exempt.
I’ve recovered several bismuth balls from the dirt. Most weighed between 130-140 grains. So they shed a little but mostly stay in-tact. Only a couple broke into fragments. Granted, I’m using the Rotometals alloy, not pure bismuth.
As for the lead not flattening, who knows? It’s only one data point. But I’m guessing that a flattened piece of lead isn’t going to blow a hole out the back but likely stop under the off-side rib somewhere. Just guessing, though as I have no experience to go off of. I’ve only shot one deer with my Hawken and was using the Thor 247 gr. There, expansion and penetration were mutually exclusive.