Noone Is Authentic!

[john1964]

I am very new to the flint lock scene but, perhaps, this affords some freshness to the forum.

I have read many threads regarding authenticity. I even posted a question of my own. What has become very clear to me is that there seem to be a few "experts" who are repeatedly critical, but none of which who can give a straight answer regarding period authenticity.

It's always the same pattern, critical of others work, but offering no definitive answer of their own.

Certainly raises the old eyebrow. Looks like I'll be doing a little more research of my own - which is always best. But some consistency would have been nice.

Just thoughts from a neophyte.

Take care,
john

 

Sachem....an astute observation. I too wish it were different.

Having said that....a lot of stuff will fit into a broad period of time. For instance, I've been wearing Lee jeans for 40 years. Not that I give a rats patoot about style but I bet they'll be in style 40 years from now. 40 years would also cover the amount of time from the end of the F&I War until the beginning of the Lewis and Clark expedition. A similar 40 year period in my life saw the introduction of the 222 Remington and 308 Winchester, which was essentially a 300 Savage. Both are considered merely "adequate" cartridges by the high velocity hounds of today....but the 308 and 222 are still out there and darn fine cartridges.

Point being, do your own research as you said, I did, and use your best judgement and you'll most likely fall well within the period of time of your choosing......probably with certainity. Whether we like it or not we're dealing with "probable", "possible", "likely", "unlikely" and when it gets to items on the edge of an era the fact is no one knows for certain. Experts are often experts in their minds only.

Vic

 

[Mike Brooks]

That's odd, there are a half dozen or more guys here that can answer any questions you may have with the most up to date and accurate information that's available. What questions are you having trouble getting straight answers too?

It's always the same pattern, critical of others work, but offering no definitive answer of their own.

I just don't see that here. If something gets picked apart here there are always reasons why that happens. It usually has something to do with a manufactorer's unresearched claims of his products authenticity. Several fellows on this board have 30+ years resarching these guns and have a hard time swallowing some of the BS that
is put out to sell products. :bull:

 

[Ridge]

I started off totally wrong. Then I began to focus on one area per year.

I'm a lot better now. I'd like to get even better.

 

[loojack]

I AGREE! I think they're called "five minute experts" If you want to get them going ask about barn guns, you'll get answers about stick shift Cadillacs, and nobody would build a gun without a buttplate because you can get one for 8 bucks.. :rotf: ...loojack

 

[rich pierce]

We've been around this bush a hundred times.
Of course nobody is authentic and nobody can give you a perfect answer. If you lived in the period of interest, nobody could give you a perfect answer.

Here's what I see over and over on this board:
Folks who research things, are always looking to learn, and trying to make their kits more authentic. There's a lot of variety among these types, and some are expert in one area and not another.

Then you've got folks who in general like the feeling of a time period, enjoy guns that are pretty close to what would have been used, and might have a few accoutrements that also fit. For such folks, a horn may be a horn if it is made of cowhorn, has a wooden plug, and hangs from a string. They want a gun like what could have been used in their area and time of interest. So they will get a Hawken or a Fusil de chasse or a Northwest gun or an early Virginia rifle or an iron mounted Tennessee rifle, etc., that generally fits for them.

And there are folks who take the attitude, "nobody knows for sure what anyone was doing or using, so it's all good, no matter what, you can't prove to me that there WASN'T such a gun or piece of equipment, and you folks always argue anyway, so you're all full of BS."

There's room for all three. But the funny thing is, folks love to call the "thread counters" names, but if a "thread counter" started calling someone a greenhorn, a fight would break out that could not be stopped short of a massacre.

Just enjoy it and stop complaining.

 

[tmdreb]

And there are folks who take the attitude, "nobody knows for sure what anyone was doing or using, so it's all good, no matter what, you can't prove to me that there WASN'T such a gun or piece of equipment, and you folks always argue anyway, so you're all full of BS."

This shows up in virtually any hobby related to recreating something historical. It's your basic "feel good" argument that attempts to artificially level the playing field.

 

[roundball]

And there are folks who take the attitude, "nobody knows for sure what anyone was doing or using, so it's all good, no matter what, you can't prove to me that there WASN'T such a gun or piece of equipment, and you folks always argue anyway, so you're all full of BS."

This shows up in virtually any hobby related to recreating something historical. It's your basic "feel good" argument that attempts to artificially level the playing field.

I'm lucky...my choice of muzzleloader is clear and causes no controversy...they were even designed and made in a previous century!!!!!

TC Hawken Flintlocks, circa 1970

Any questions ?????

:rotf:

 

[Swampman]

"Of course nobody is authentic"

I disagree. I know quite a few that are.....Go to a really big event, and you will find one or two. There are lots that think they are.... :winking:

 

[tg]

" I even posted a question of my own. What has become very clear to me is that there seem to be a few "experts" who are repeatedly critical, but none of which who can give a straight answer regarding period authenticity'

After re-reading your one post I thought you got reasonable and polite and accurate info, you offered thanks a couple of times, most often the problems occur when the answers are not the ones someone wants to hear, I for one am about done trying to help anyone or share anything, let those who wish to know something spend $1000 on books and many hundreds of hours of research and learn for themselves...

 

[oomcurt]

Just adding my two cents at the end here...this debate/conversatiion has been probably been going on since the first rondevous. Bottom line to me is it is basically up to the individual as to what they feel comfortable with AND therefore the events or locations they feel comfortable in going to. That said, while one who is historically correct may have the best intentions in giving advice or answers it may come across to the one directing the question as a sort of put down. Now, I am in no way a "thread counter"...does that mean I for some reason have a axe to grind with a historically correct person? No way. Not at all, I have learned that at least 99.44% of the time the answers given have simply been what has been learned up to this point in the endeavors to find out what was and was not used in any respective area. Does that mean some questionable item was not used in a certain time period? No...but the so to speak goal is to be correct "safely"...meaning that an item was used and hence it is historically correct. The bottom line being maintaining a step back in time to portray what was. Sure, there are plenty of events that do not split hairs one can go to. If one has problems following ridgid rules regarding a item...then go to or join a club that has more relaxed rules. There is more than enough room in this hobby/pursuit of ours to satisfy darn near anyone. One side dunning the other does nothing but cause dissention.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Still waiting on a specific question. Now's your chance to get your answers, since you have everybody's attention now..... :grin:

 

[thomas]

oomcurt, Excellent post! I think your post has alot of common sense in it, which is uncommon now day's.

Thomas

 

[aragorn]

A lot of questions just don't have definitive answers. Saying so often shows the greatest expertise.

 

[David Teague]

Hello John,

I reviewed your question and I can see the problem in question.

"I would like to know, who could I contact if I were seeking a good "PC" flint used in New York State during, or prior to, the French and Indian War period?"

You asked a sound question but really didn't get much back in the way of solid answers... but you were also asked a few thoughtful questions that would have aided with the right answers if the right person was lurking on your thread.

"The things to consider would be "Who, when and where are you?" to pick your firearm."

You never answered them...

These are the very same questions any reeactor or living historian needs to ask themselves before spending a dime on gear.

I see from your next post you like the Hudson Bay fowlers... are they a French gun? If they are, then it might be a great choice IF it fits your persona... if it's a English style flinter (which I think it is... once again, not my area of study)then you would need to change your persona to meet the needs of the gun you like or change guns to fit your persona... like one of the Tulle muskets the French were using at the time.

Your question might have faired better in the F&I section of the fine fourm, you just might want to do a repost in that section as the people who study that time frame hang out there... they maybe even bypass this part of the forum...

Cross posts are ok, and can help you find out the info you seek.

However... nothing beats personal research, that way you have the documatation for your gear, guns and clothes... not just the word of "somebody" you met on a internet forum. :winking:

Good luck with your search.

Cheers,

David Teague

 

[Toomuch_36]

A lot of questions just don't have definitive answers. Saying so often shows the greatest expertise.

Well said.
Most items often overlaped periods, as when a style of clothing or an improvement in weapon technology (flint to percussion) occured not everyone could just run right down to Wal-Mart and pick up the "latest thing". Other than royalty, and government equiped military, the common man would use whatever he already had as long as he could.

Toomuch
............
Shoot Flint

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Most people want to hear from others that their newly purchased gun from one of the big-time gun peddlars is authentic in every way. Fact is most are not even though many have been represented by the peddler as such.

Terms like "1750's" "early" "perfect for F&I" are frequently used. I dont know if the sellers actually no any better adn are trying to deceive so that they can sell a product or they are that ignorant of what is correct for a certain gun for a certain time period. Many people dont want the truth but want only to have their itching ears scratched with fables anyway.

The original poster is wise to pursue his own research but having some of the notable historians give their two cents worth is a great help in that search and it would be unwise not to entertain their knowledge. There are some of those historians and experts that are members here that have offered their expertise but unfortunately they are discounted by the unknowing as another keyboard commando.

The factory muzzleloaders are where most of us started. Many have changed to other areas of interest and some have been perfectly satisfied to continue with the Thompson Centers, etc,. No problems here.

There are varied levels of interest in this hobby and to each his own but most factory guns are not correct in very obvious ways and that is fact. Many of the guns being produced today as "semi-custom" etc. also have authenticity problems and some people actually want to know what they are believe it or not before they sink money in what they consider a waste of effort and good wood while another might think it is a great rifle for their needs.


It's all good

 

[Toomuch_36]

Most people want to hear from others that their newly purchased gun from one of the big-time gun peddlars is authentic in every way. Fact is most are not even though many have been represented by the peddler as such.

Terms like "1750's" "early" "perfect for F&I" are frequently used. I dont know if the sellers actually no any better adn are trying to deceive so that they can sell a product or they are that ignorant of what is correct for a certain gun for a certain time period. Many people dont want the truth but want only to have their itching ears scratched with fables anyway.

The original poster is wise to pursue his own research but having some of the notable historians give their two cents worth is a great help in that search and it would be unwise not to entertain their knowledge. There are some of those historians and experts that are members here that have offered their expertise but unfortunately they are discounted by the unknowing as another keyboard commando.

The factory muzzleloaders are where most of us started. Many have changed to other areas of interest and some have been perfectly satisfied to continue with the Thompson Centers, etc,. No problems here.

There are varied levels of interest in this hobby and to each his own but most factory guns are not correct in very obvious ways and that is fact. Many of the guns being produced today as "semi-custom" etc. also have authenticity problems and some people actually want to know what they are believe it or not before they sink money in what they consider a waste of effort and good wood while another might think it is a great rifle for their needs.


It's all good

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Toomuch
............
Shoot Flint

 

[Swampman]

I find that most of the time when I tell someone what's right, they say "I don't want to spend that much money".

Being "right" isn't as easy as it used to be. Folks in the hobby are very well informed and there are a lot of high quality, though very expensive goods available. I'm guessing a "correct" flintlock would run $15,000.00. An "acceptable" flintlock will run about $2000.00.

 

[Cherokee]

Probably more and more people are being turned away due to the commercialization of things too.
Gun kits and the parts seem really high especially for plain everyday oak stocks so a guy builds his own gun and uses a cheap maple stock and probably gets knocked for it and not praised for building his own and keeping the faith of doing it yourself.
Just a thought.