Noone Is Authentic!

I too am not sure exactly where you are coming from. In your last post you got good advice in general. To specifically answer your question: go to Mike Brooks (who posts here frequently and answered part of your question--he was too modest to say "i'll build you a correct one", but he can). I general: answering questions about period correctness (or 'time', which also entails place correctness and personna correctness)is not easy. Your question will generally get questions back for more details about what you really want to know...there are few blanket correct answers. Some things are easy to answer but hard to follow through on. Stitches: there were no sewing machines in the 18th century or early 19th century--so to be strictly PC your clothes should be hand sewn, right? Maybe. Many reenactors and events allow machine stitching, especially if it does not show (like french seams). Beth Gilgun, a period clothes expert, was once asked how to best duplicate the fine hand stitching of period garments. She said "use a sewing machine." Sooo, it is up to whatever group you associate with whether or not you hand sew everything--plus your own level of historic accuracy--what does it take for you to suspend disbelief? Guns: there are only a handfull of truely PC guns around--guns with handforged barrels and locks hand filed out of iron, etc....even 99% of custom makers use store bought locks and barrels and most use store bought stock blanks and mass produced brass hardware. You know the old expression "lock, stock and barrel"? Very few doing that. But, there are a lot of makers who will put together a period correct LOOKING gun--proper styling, etc. Ther are almost NO PC factory made store shelf guns. I could go on. When you really get into it there are dozens (100s?) of other questions and points of research or argument to deal with. This is part of the charm for history buffs, but not everyman's cup of tea. PC is a learning experience--a journey--not a settled end point. You can (I did) get frustrated in the beginning--and some turn away for good--or you can stick with it and learn. Even the best experts I know cannot answer all of the tough questions.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Gun kits and the parts seem really high

You get what you pay for. I've been putting a line of kits on the market for the past couple of years. When you realise how much work and capital investment goes into even getting one kit on the market, you'd wonder why these guys are selling them so cheap. It's certainly no way to become a millionair. :shake:

 

[Cherokee]

I think thats partially true. Look at the bad barrel thread.
So many of the quality hand crafted companies are trying to crank out production like the big factories and its hurting their reputation.
Some times its better to go with a big company and have them ready to help with a problem.
Not that said barrel company in that thread wouldnt but its becoming more and more common where the higher quality stuff is being made as fast as possible to keep up.

 

[rickystl]

My two cents worth. I've mentioned this before on another thread. I started shooting muzzleloaders in the middle 1960's. When I look at the knowledge,equipment,supply houses,builders in today's market it's amazing how this hobby has grown. Having been out of the hobby for a few years and coming back into the fold, I am still amazed. I, for one, have received a wealth of information on this forum. Everything from how-to's to historical accuracy. 2006 will be a fun year for me. Plan to purchase a few guns this year. Everything from India made muskets to high quality kits to a semi-custom from Mike Brooks (although he doesn't know it yet). I only hope my bank account can keep up with me :shocked2:

 

[Bob Ekes]

To Sachem,
Although I have been involved in living history, reenacting and historical trekking for a few years I am also new to this forum and its impressive collection of subforums.

It is so true that often our questions must generate more questions before we can even start to form an answer. I believe that it is also true that historical and archeological evidence being by its very nature, only a partial representation of the totality of 'what was then', that we may never know the definitive answer to some questions.

Speculation on what was the complete picture will always involve differing opinions and discussions of those differences, even by the 'experts'. I feel that it is this dynamic tension that helps the state of research and knowledge advance.

Will we ever get the complete truth without any doubt? I don't believe so. Can an individual in 2006 ever achieve complete period correctness as to some time, and place, and individual role in the 1700's? I don't think so. But we can keep improving. It is an individual choice where we choose to be satisfied with our own efforts.

I believe that our hobby is large enough to accomodate a wide range of levels of comfort as to our own levels of personal authenticity. I have been favorably impressed by the discussions in this forum that seem to evidence, for the most part, a mature understanding of this situation.

I have to say that I have been impressed with how well-moderated the discussions are and how courteous and helpful most of the posts that I have read are. I have not seen the critical attitudes. Nor have I seen arrogance towards newcomers or a lack of helpfulness to those who ask questions.

I have seen, on some other forums and message boards, discussions and disagreements and attitudes that have been downright brutal and had all of the civility of a club fight.

I am thankful that I have stumbled onto The Muzzleloading Forum as I find the participants to be friendly, quite civil, very community minded, and very willing to help others.

 

[Deerstalker]

Unless I've missed his second post, looks like this fella just stirred up a hornets nest and backed off. I'd wait to see what his real question is. Plenty of good advise here, but a lot of opinions too and unless you have real specific documentable questions, that is likely what you will get... someones opinion. It's your choice what you do with it.
Bryan

 

[john1964]

Good morning everyone,

As I indicated I am proceeding with research on my own, but do think my original post (not in this thread) contained sufficient information to get a few possible candidates, or least some more poignant questions.

But for those who appear to be chomping at the bit to flex their muzzleloader muscle I give you the following:

I grew up in Fort Johnson, NY. It is located in the Mohawk Valley approximately 25 miles west of Albany, NY.

Fort Johnson was home to Sir William Johnson (1715-1774). Johnson was Anglo-Irish and served as the British Superintendent of Indian Affairs from 1755 to 1774. I believe he held a colonial appointment (Commissioner of Indian Affairs) prior to the royal appointment.

Johnson was a close friend of the Iroquois Nation, was known for dancing about the camp fire in indian garb, became blood brother to the Iroquios, and served as military leader in several military campaigns (indians and militia) including battles in the French and Indian War (Lake George, Fort Niagara).

So, with that as a background - I am looking for a firearm that would have been used by a member of his militia during these campaigns. HOWEVER, I am NOT looking for a military musket. Several options are welcome, but please explain why they are different.

Also, and equally as important, who builds an authentic version?

There, that should be sufficient. My expectations are high. Thoughts?

Take care,
john

 

[Mike Brooks]

So, with that as a background - I am looking for a firearm that would have been used by a member of his militia during these campaigns. HOWEVER, I am NOT looking for a military musket. Several options are welcome, but please explain why they are different.

Difficult question to answer with out narrowing down the options. Literally scores of guns would be a good choice, and explaining and understanding the differences of all of those choices has given me a library that probably weighs near a ton in weight.
Speaking in general terms, an english fowler would probably be your best choice. You'll have to decide what level in society your militia man lives, as the quality of his gun will reflect that. You'll also have to decide if he was local born or came from somewhere else. 1755-1774 covers a large span in firearms evolution. A fowler that is right for 1774 may not be right for 1755. There are details that make a large difference. There are some rifles that would have been available at that time also.
Are you looking for a kit or a finished gun? Chambers puts out the highest quality kits. He has several choices you migh consider. There are other dealers out there that may have satisfactory kits also. It's best to keep in mind, you get what you pay for. The cheapest isn't always the best bargain in the long run. (or short run for that matter)
If you are looking for a finished gun you should find somebody who has a good reputation, and knows something about the gun you want built , and what is correct the time period. You might want to see actual guns the builder has made or at the very least pictures of his work and specfically pictures of the style of gun you want him to make for you. You might keep in mind, if the maker is any good at all , your're probably looking at 6 months to a year or more wait for a finished gun to your specs .

 

That narrows it some. One of the problems we all have is that there are very few (if any) detailed period descriptions of the guns used for any period/place back then (other than military issue or trade gun contracts). So we have to interpret from what is known or what is most likely. For example, Johnson was British (very) but adaptable to his Iroquois allies. His forces fought for the Crown in both the F&I War and AWI. British muskets and trade guns are likely candidates for the Indians and at least some militia. A civilian bringing his own weapon would have a wide choice of muskets, rifles and fowlers. If you are mainly interested in the F&I War period that narrows it some more. And, a F&I War piece could still be around for use in 1770s. Heck I still use a gun that is over 80 years old and another that is over 120 yrs old. A nice Hudson Valley fowler would be nice. Check out the recent book on fowlers advertised on the Muzzleloader Mag site. I think Chambers offers a "New England folwer" that would do also. A "Wilson Chiefs gun" could be used as well --the Caywood guns I have seen are beauties. Again, ask Mike Brooks (here)for a quote--it doesn't get much better than that....

 

[Okwaho]

I have read all eight posts on both threads and have seen some some good responses on the original question as to an appropriate gun for some one in the Mohawk Valley of the Eastern New York area Ca. 1755-1774.They have ranged from Hudson Valley fowlers to French fusils and there is something to be said for all of them.Before I try to offer any educated "opinions" in this somewhat murky area it would be helpful if I knew how the gun was to be used ie.reenacting and if so what impression,collecting,or hunting and/or shooting.There would be a great deal of difference between the gun needs and preferences of an Iroquois warrior or a White settler doing his turn as a militiaman or a Ranger during the F&I War.I portray a Kanawake Mohawk from Quebec and at the present time am carrying an early French fusil as befitting my age{72}which I have carried for many years. I will look foward to hearing from you.
Tom Patton

 

[john1964]

It would be for personal use, mostly targeting. But that should not change the requirements regarding its authenticity.

Please re-read my last post, the other answers you seek are already there.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Please re-read my last post, the other answers you seek are already there.

We are not seeking answers, you are. You'll have to be more specific in your questions if you want more specific answers.

 

[john1964]

Mike B.,

I received a full ride scholarship to undertake a PhD. at the University of Pittsburgh.

Why would you care? Because I have had the opportunity to digest large amounts of information over many years. I have extensively researched any number of topics in the context of the competitive environment found at that scholastic level. And I must say your inability to articulate any position, or even poignant questions to aid in narrowing an answer, remarkable.

Picking a period piece does take some research, but it is not nearly as difficult as is being portrayed here.

But I do want to thank those who have given responses that, miracle of miracles, did contain suggestions.

Take care,
john

 

[Claude Mathis]

...most often the problems occur when the answers are not the ones someone wants to hear...

To a certain extent, I have to agree. This isn't aimed at Sachem, but quite often people join the Forum with a preconceived notion of what they want to do. They have already committed money and themselves to a particular direction and when they hear anything that contradicts that direction, they are naturally upset. Some take it in stride and others wish to kill the messenger.

When we seek "definitive" answers, we must remember that there might not be any. Being "Historically Accurate" can be a very subjective thing. Individuals may define it differently, based on their current knowledge and what they are willing to "settle for". What I "thought" was accurate 7 years ago makes me laugh today.

I try to remember that the answers I receive are meant to help me, even if I don't like them.

 

Mike B.,

I received a full ride scholarship to undertake a PhD. at the University of Pittsburgh.

Why would you care? Because I have had the opportunity to digest large amounts of information over many years. I have extensively researched any number of topics in the context of the competitive environment found at that scholastic level. And I must say your inability to articulate any position, or even poignant questions to aid in narrowing an answer, remarkable.

Picking a period piece does take some research, but it is not nearly as difficult as is being portrayed here.

But I do want to thank those who have given responses that, miracle of miracles, did contain suggestions.

Take care,
john

WHEW! Not sure where this came from? I HAVE a Ph.D. (Penn State, Geology, 1974)and I don't know what your problem is....Mike Brooks is one of the best sources here for info you seek.

 

[john1964]

Well,

I will post no further on the topic. The only reason I posted again at all was I believe some were essentially waiting for a response of some kind.

I have been doing some research of my own and making good progress. I'm sure I will find what I am looking for and already have some idea what guns are of interest to me.

Take care
john

 

[Mike Brooks]

I received a full ride scholarship to undertake a PhD. at the University of Pittsburgh.

So, your point is?

Why would you care?

I ceased caring with this post :shake:

I have extensively researched any number of topics in the context of the competitive environment found at that scholastic level. And I must say your inability to articulate any position, or even poignant questions to aid in narrowing an answer, remarkable.

This is not a "competitive environment", I give out information for free, there is no charge or tuition for my area of expertice. If you want specific answers, you'll have to give me specific questions. I'm not going to type 14 pages here of what guns were available to Johnson's militia and why and how they differ from each other. I simply don't have time to bring you up to speed on my 25 years of research in one post. I suggest you go buy several thousand dollars worth of books and do your own research since you seem to be so capable.

And I must say your inability to articulate any position, or even poignant questions to aid in narrowing an answer, remarkable.

I FIND THIS STATEMENT ABSOLUTLY AROGANT AND INSULTING
The inability of people here to answer your questions is a reflection of your inability to know what to ask.

Picking a period piece does take some research, but it is not nearly as difficult as is being portrayed here.

How would you know how difficult it is? y You obviously don't have a clue, that's why you're here asking isn't it? I mean if you already figured this is an easy question I'd figure a fella with your PHD and research background would have came up with the obvious choices in just a few minutes. :haha:
I was leary of even answering your initial questions when the header reads " Noone Is Authentic!" What the heck is "Noone"? Quite a start for someone of your education level. :shake: It's all a moot point anyway, from what I remember of your previous posts , you're looking to spend as little as possible, and with that frame of mind your going to end up with a "It's close enough" gun anyhow.
If I didn't know anybetter I'd say your here mainly to stir the pot. :nono:
DAMN these kinds of people INFURIATE ME :cursing:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Double post....

 

[lockjaw]

...we all know what PHD stands for...( Piled Higher and Deeper:bull

 

[DrTimboone]

Sachem, I have am not sure what you learned in your PhD program, but it definetly wasn't humility.

As a beginner in Muzzleloading I suggest you apologize to the very experienced men who have tried to help you out.

Mike Brooks and several others who responded to you already have more knowledge and experience with authenticity than you will garner from the books in the next ten years!

Yes I did read all of your posts and you did get quite a few great answers. If you don't like them, then try asking the questions differently. "repeatedly getting the same unsuccessful results without being willing to change your questions is at best stupidity".....

or you are simply trolling... a sad behavior trying to cause trouble..if that is the case ...go elsewhere.