NorthStar Canoe Gun

[Russ T Frizzen]

And what is it that you like about him so much? Nevermind--privacy should be respected. But if you two want to borrow my barrel stretcher for a few days to clamp--well wherever--let me know. He seems to have some ideas about this. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

I don't see where the barrel length of your shorter barreled gun is mentioned, so it's impossible to know whether you are advocating 20" barrels or 34" barrels or?

What is a "trade length" barrel? Never heard that term before. The early guns came with very long barrels but I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean given your support of the shorter is better theory. But if you mean 20", you need to do some research.

There is a big difference between cutting down a barrel because you blew half of it off for one reason or another and deliberately choosing to buy a gun with an ultra short barrel. This is the point we tried to make and perhaps we did.


There are short barreled guns all over the world. But what time period are you talking about? Where and what were they used for? Riding up to a running buffalo and inflicting a contact wound?Did they start out that way or did they have to be shortened because they blew up? Are they even trade guns? And as an overall percentage of the trade guns produced, how many came with sub 30" barrels, never mind 20" barrels?

I really don't care what someone else shoots, but when asked I try to help, provided it's within my experience. But over the past few years I've noticed a tendency for people to want the answers to reflect what they pretty much have already decided on. And there is always a group of sycophants singing a sweet tune of agreement in their ears. And somehow the laws of physics no longer apply. Who knew?

 

[gizamo]

Russ, nothing in my comment about you...

I just like to see guys like Wayne come in and challenge things that are thoroughly vetted in our opinions. I like that. If nothing gets challenged, little will ever get discussed. Every so often, somebody chimes in with something new... :grin:

giz

 

[Darkgael]

I would hope that you are not trying to Bust Brush while you hunt. There are game trails, big and small through any woods, and those are the paths to follow.

Paul: Just a note - there was a similar conversation a year or two ago when I was about to buy my first fowler. I ended up with a 40" barrel on mine. I had considered a shorter barrel because I hunt in some VERY dense brush. To the point - there may be game trails but they are not always going to be big enough for an animal the size of a man to use. When I'm hunting grouse in a huckleberry thicket, my dog can get through easily - I can't. When she goes on point inside, I have to get there or ignore the point (and that's a lot of points). I have to bust brush - please believe me - there are NO trails that a man can use, especially in a hurry. The long gun is more difficult to move through the brush, no two ways about it. I carry a shorter gun when I'm going to be in that stuff.
Your point about there being a branch or a vine in the way is well made.
Pete

 

[paulvallandigham]

I do not want this to degenerate into a testosterone debate, but I hunt thickets with my long rifle, and anywhere I can go, the gun can go too.

That does not mean a bird is not going to flush and escape once in awhile when I am trying to move into position for a shot. Yes, Its frustrating, but that is why its called Hunting!

Sometimes a bird will flush high enough that I can get a shot over the brush. Other times, I hear them go, but never see them.

My DB shotgun has 30 inch barrels, and it also seems to go where I need to go. I also have hunted dove and pheasants with a 22 inch barreled DB shotgun in inherited. I have been in thick stuff where its shorter length proved no help.

As I noted above, I still have found that following game trails- even the ones that go UNDER stuff- usually gives me a more likely path with sure footing, to follow, and when a path goes into bramble, there is almost always another path made by predators, that goes around the bramble, that I can follow.

I had this taught to me by a friend's old Beagle, who apparently tired of working down under and into bramble rabbit trails, and would back out and run around the bramble to cover the other side, where invariably, the rabbit either had already exited, or was about to exit. That dog always found a better, easier trail around the bramble to take. I began to follow him, and got into places I thought would be impossible for someone my size to reach without a bulldozer!

He let the younger dogs do the crawling into the bramble, while he used his brains to get the rabbit. That old dog had a bit of arthritis, and limped some if we worked him too long, but he loved to hunt, and my friend simply could not leave him at home.

While we were taking the stickers out of the feet and coats of the younger dogs, that old dog would simply lay down and take his nap. I checked him after one successful hunt, and he didn't have a sticker on him.

Years later, another friend had trained his blood hound to scent trail people, and was working with the local police department. Because he didn't know the Rules of Evidence, and was paranoid about screwing up any evidence that might be admissible in Court, he asked me to let him come to me early each morning after one of his searches, and review it, and what he saw, or found, and then discuss with me how that evidence needed to be collected and preserved to present it in Court.

He used his young Blood hound to trail an armed Robber one night, and the trail ended at a house, where the robber ran up on the porch, jumped the railing, and then ran around to the back door. When he arrived with his Bloodhound, the dog went up the porch, and jumped over the railing, bruising her feet when she landed. She was okay, but she had very sore feet for the next couple of days. About 8 months later, he was called out on another Armed Robbery, and the scent trail took him to the same house from a different direction. Again, the trail went up on that front porch, but this time, when she saw the railing, she immediately turned around and went back down the steps of the porch, around the side of the house, where she searched for and picked up the scent trail where the man landed, and proceeded to follow him around to the back door of the house, again.

On Both occasions, the police refused to seek a search warrant for the house, so no arrest was made. They later learned that their suspect's grandfather lived in the house, and worked a night shift, so he had no idea that his grandson was using his house as a " hide-out".

My friend was very frustrated with the Judicial system, and his police friends, but he was delighted that his dog did not leap over that porch railing a second time and hurt her feet again! The officers with him the second time were amazed to see that she did what she did, because she had not been stopped by any barriers before on the trail.

When he told me what she did, I was both amused, and proud to know that his dog had learned something, and was as smart a dog as I had been telling my friend she was. ( I had laid down scent trails for him and another K-9 officer friend to practice on, so I had seen her work.)

If Old Dogs CAN learn new tricks, I am hoping that you can change, too.

 

[matt denison]

Can I borrow that barrel stretcher? I was making a 36" barrel the other day and it ended up 35 1/2"... another bad morning in the shop.. :rotf:

The point I tried to make is that a short barrel isn't neccessarily any less accurate than it's longer brothers. Once a ball starts traveling in a straight line it will continue to. 65 grains of FFg wll push that ball at adequate velocity to hold a kill zone trajectory for 50 yards which is typically the longest range that i personally am willing to shoot a smoothbore at a live animal. A "canoe gun" with a 12" LOP is not my first choice for a hunting rig, I have others for that (way too many) but they are fun and can be darn handy and I have to admit that they are popular. North Star was the first to offer these type guns and now there are at least three other manufacturers offering them. I'm not promoting them here, they are actually a low profit item. I am compelled to dispel the short barrel myth.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Matt, to my mind, the biggest difficulty regarding accuracy is the shorter sighting plane, especially for someone new to smoothbores. Technically speaking, a finely made barrel should be accurate regardless of length, but the longer one usually ends up being more accurate due to other considerations, such as being steadier to hold due to weighing more and the aforementioned sighting plane length. It can burn more powder so it shoots a little flatter and this is a help too. In truth, had the original poster wanted a 30" barrel, I think he would have gotten a much different response and even with the 20" barrel had he been experienced with smoothbores it might well have been different too.

I don't like taking shots at more than 50 yards myself, even with my long barrel smoothbores. It's nice to know that I have a little extra range in reserve, but I really don't want use it. Around here it is rarely necessary.

The original poster was a neophyte in the world of smoothbores and I think that led to the responses being what they were. The length of pull was a concern too. I felt that he had chosen the right gunmaker and just needed a nudge or two regarding the gun itself.

I do think that your point about holding a kill zone at 50 yards is valid. Much of my concern was about using shot for birds and small game.

By the way, you can use the barrel stretcher any time you want! :rotf: Dan

 

[Darkgael]

Paul: OK, I give in. Smiles.

Other times, I hear them go, but never see them.

Oh, yeah. I know about that. And about crawling on the ground.

Pete

 

[pichou]

At my age I really ought to know better than to advise newbies about firearms choices. It's as frustrating and hopeless an endeavor as trying to reason with a liberal.

I suppose you like to tell pickup truck owners they only really need a truck a couple days a year too? :wink:

Pichou, a liberal who knows there's no such thing as a...







canoe gun. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Now there's a thought! :rotf:

I like to think of myself as a Constitutional Conservative with moderate leanings except where most things are concerned. Then I'm a conservative moderate who prefers long barrels on my smoothbores and rifles even when I'm out hunting canoes. Still haven't found a good recipe for a canoe yet, but a little Tabasco Sauce makes most anything palatable. :rotf:

 

[pichou]

It is only ethical to shoot canoes if they break a leg.

Pichou = personally conservative, politically liberal, 36.5" barrel (unstretched) :surrender:

 

[Tinker2]

Didn’t they used to smoke canoes?

Tinker2 = personally middle of the road, politically on the fence.

My favorite rifles and smooth bore guns are my longest ones.
The rifles and smooth bores that I use the most are my shortest one.


Tinker2

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Didn’t they used to smoke canoes?

Tinker2 = personally middle of the road, politically on the fence.

My favorite rifles and smooth bore guns are my longest ones.
The rifles and smooth bores that I use the most are my shortest one.


Tinker2

Your favorite guns are your longest ones, but you prefer to use your shortest ones? Do I have that right?

 

[tg]

I have found the longer guns to my likeing after shooting with barrels from 28" up tp 44" I like the feel and sight plane of the long gun as well as the closer tie with history, and have yet to find a place I can navigate that I cannot take my 44" fusil with me and get the shot if it is there. I feel one should shoot whatever they wish barrel length ways but at the same time I think much of the shorter barrel preference is a failure to let go of the modern gun structure we cut our teeth on, much like the use of bullets, adjustable sights and other such items.

 

[gizamo]

Russ,

Respectfully, he is not alone :wink:

I find myself in the same boat...(just not a canoe!) :rotf: :rotf:

I prefer my shorter barreled rifles and smoothbores in the field. But I am in love with my longer guns for everything else. Events, range time, plinkin' with the kids....just not huntin'.

I spend a good part of my life in the backcountry. As in everyday I get a chance. The guns of choice aren't the longer ones.

Hope to shake your hand someday, as I respect much of what you post here. And I like folks that challenge my opinion of things. Your one of those fella's that I'd be happy to agree to disagree with.... :wink:

giz

 

[hawk]

the gun I take when in my canoe is 46" long and the canoe don't seem to mind ...the moose on the other hand ...

36" would be my shortest and it is a full choke 12 bore

 

[Tinker2]

Didn’t they used to smoke canoes?

Tinker2 = personally middle of the road, politically on the fence.

My favorite rifles and smooth bore guns are my longest ones.
The rifles and smooth bores that I use the most are my shortest one.


Tinker2

Your favorite guns are your longest ones, but you prefer to use your shortest ones? Do I have that right?

Yes, that right, it is sort of like the fact that I like to shoot my
smooth bores more then my rifles. Flintlocks over percussion.
I like the challenges or maybe the frustration.

The next four barrels/guns on the drawing board that I either have,
getting or making or thinking about are all small smooth bores.
.45 .410 .36 .32 caliber smooth bores. All with under 30” barrels.

Nothing that I would recommend to new shooters, in that we are in full
agreement for sure. I would just not bad mouth the shorter, smaller gages or hand guns as much. Like you I would not recommend them as a
first do everything gun.

One of my favorite little, short, part round part octagon .410 smooth bore, 26” barrel, flintlock, kids gun with a adult lop. Not a moose or goose gun but still a blast to shoot, a fun gun. Stolen from me, so sad.

My shorter guns are easier to load if I am sitting in the bottom of my canoe.

Russ I respect everything that you post here.




Tinker2

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Interesting. I had a smallbore fowler (.44 caliber) stolen many years ago. The barrel was about 36" long as I recall and the stock was cherry. Made in Connecticut I think. This was an original, late flint gun, so these miniature smoothbores definitely existed in period. I think mine weighed 4 pounds or a little more. Very cheap to shoot, too. Good luck with yours. Dan

 

[DanChamberlain]

Thank God those short barreled double coach guns never kilt a road agent! The shotgun riders just carried them for show! Of course, we all know that short black powder barrels are useless. That's why so many smooth barrels were whacked off in days gone by. They didn't have chronographs or they'd have left'em alone.

My best grouse gun wore 18 inch barrels and no chokes!

Where's my hack saw?

Dan

 

Resurrecting a 6-month old discussion with sarcasm is what makes this forum great. :shake:

 

[happyhunter]

I am new to muzzleloaders. I do like the short barrels, they look cool and handle nicer. I really am not a history buff so I don't care about whether it was really made that way. As a deer hunter I only care: can I use this little gun?

We have here 2 1/2 pages of people using vague words (better, faster, farther...) Has anyone acutally chronographed a PRB with the same loads out of different barrel lengths. Certainly the shorter barrel will be slower. But how much slower? I think black powder burns faster than smokeless. So the shorter barrel may not be much of a handicap. I know the experienced say longer is better for hunting. But how much faster is it really? I am an engineer, I like numbers.

BTW I am after deer and such so I myself only care about round ball velocity. How well shot performs is a topic for later discussion.