Northwest trade guns

[plmeek]

Trade guns were mostly often stocked in plain maple Or walnut.

Some US gun makers (JJ Henry and Henry Leman) used some maple on their NW trade guns, but they mostly stocked them in walnut.

European gun makers (English, French, and Belgian) used walnut and beech on their trade guns. Surviving European marked trade guns with maple stocks are believed to have been restocked in US or Canada.

 

[William Lincoln]

It is important to remember "Trade guns" are period pieces that were traded for
pelts and skins with Native Americans and Frontier trappers. This was the era of
the trading posts in the West (in this case). These were spartan pieces, made
rugged as the people who bartered for them. In their day, the Trade merchandise
of any class was the "basic" tough product--not the "doll baby fancy" stuff.
This muzzleloading pursuit is intertwined with history And maybe that is one
of the strong draws that it has upon us. The OP should know that the word
"trade" means basic utility and that it can take-on most anything you ask of
it IF you ,the bearer of it ,know how to use it and practice.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Well my friend, theres one thing we can say about Love love loving our Muzzle loading Guns, they wont Lie to you or Lie about you; and they certainly won't drag you through the Court to rip your financial guts out in property settlement !

Hmmm... Yah, I've had similar experiences myself.

 

[Coinneach]

Hmmm... Yah, I've had similar experiences myself.

You certainly arent Robinson Crusoe, happened to me 6 years ago ......never again.

 

[tenngun]

It is important to remember "Trade guns" are period pieces that were traded for
pelts and skins with Native Americans and Frontier trappers. This was the era of
the trading posts in the West (in this case). These were spartan pieces, made
rugged as the people who bartered for them. In their day, the Trade merchandise
of any class was the "basic" tough product--not the "doll baby fancy" stuff.
This muzzleloading pursuit is intertwined with history And maybe that is one
of the strong draws that it has upon us. The OP should know that the word
"trade" means basic utility and that it can take-on most anything you ask of
it IF you ,the bearer of it ,know how to use it and practice.

Going along with that we have to keep in mind that though rugged they were not ‘cheap’. The barrels were put to the same standard as any other civilian barrel. Indians looked for the proof marks, so much so that Belgium and American pieces imitated British marks. The sea serpent side plate to was copied ‘to a t’.
The locks were large because it’s easier to make a well working large lock then a smaller more dainty
It was a trade item and met for hard use, however Indians were vary picky about what they bought. They expected a tough WORKING peice. Woe be the traders that didn’t provide high quality goods

 

[FlinterNick]

Going along with that we have to keep in mind that though rugged they were not ‘cheap’. The barrels were put to the same standard as any other civilian barrel. Indians looked for the proof marks, so much so that Belgium and American pieces imitated British marks. The sea serpent side plate to was copied ‘to a t’.
The locks were large because it’s easier to make a well working large lock then a smaller more dainty
It was a trade item and met for hard use, however Indians were vary picky about what they bought. They expected a tough WORKING peice. Woe be the traders that didn’t provide high quality goods
[/QUOTE

 

[FlinterNick]

By cheap NW guns were lacking certain craftsmanship and cheaper parts. Nails vs screws, trigger plate vs no trigger plate, lack of a forend cap and entry pipe. The pedigree of a NW trade gun is not that of a Typically fowling piece or even a military musket.

 

[tenngun]

By cheap NW guns were lacking certain craftsmanship and cheaper parts. Nails vs screws, trigger plate vs no trigger plate, lack of a forend cap and entry pipe. The pedigree of a NW trade gun is not that of a Typically fowling piece or even a military musket.

Yup. We might say economy or less. I was just pointing out that there was nothing trashy about them. They came out of factories and were a workmanlike product for all their inexpensive features. And their customers were very picky. It was a two way street. The trading companies had to supply what the customers, mostly Indians, wanted.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Well my friend, theres one thing we can say about Love love loving our Muzzle loading Guns, they wont Lie to you or Lie about you; and they certainly won't drag you through the Court to rip your financial guts out in property settlement !

That's true Coineach, but it has been implied that I lied about them. Especially being more accurate than they are. They have also been upset when I chose to use a different rifle than the one that felt it was its turn to go to the range.

 

[FlinterNick]

Yup. We might say economy or less. I was just pointing out that there was nothing trashy about them. They came out of factories and were a workmanlike product for all their inexpensive features. And their customers were very picky. It was a two way street. The trading companies had to supply what the customers, mostly Indians, wanted.

No nothing trashy.

But they were made ‘cheaper’ because they were often traded at a trading post, not necessarily purchased for cash, or a note. The gun needed to be affordable for trade And cost to purchase for sale.

Additionally they were designed so that they could be easily repaired in the field. Less working parts, screws, plates etc is considered less to worry about.

I like comparing NW trade guns to British Sea Service Muskets. British Sea Service muskets (early ones) were designed with cheaper parts, not to bring down the quality but so that a naval armor / engineer could repair them with what materials were most commonly found at on ships at sea.

also, not all NW trade muskets were the same. Many had different features, some were made a little better than others. Nosebands on the fore end, butt plate screws and a form of trigger plate. You don’t often see them with entry pipes, like many poor boy or bean rifles lacking an entry pipe, its just part of that style.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The trade guns were designed to fill a customer driven set of requirements. Those end users wanted an affordable firearm that didn't require the expense of a lot fur or hides to purchase. They wanted a caliber, gauge or bore that would effectively harvest the quarry. Time spent tracking game was time lost gathering hides. They wanted a firearm that was light in weight but was of an effective bore diameter. Of course, simple to maintain so a visit to a frontier fort with a blacksmith could keep the gun in repair. The military surplus firearms were at the end of their useful life. Use as a backup would be acceptable, but not as the day to day carry for hunting.

 

[Tn poor boy]

Can you provide a link to the Clay Smith site please ?

Go to YouTube grump gun Smith

 

[Tn poor boy]

I have a friend has a regional trade gun someone cut the stock down

 

[EN]

@longcruise ,

Thank you for your comments. I think that gun in the "collage" of photos was re-stocked, using most of the original hardware, likely by a gunsmith at one of the frontier trading centers. James Josiah Webb, a Santa Fe trader, reported that his rifle had been re-stocked at Bent's fort, and Lewis Garrard stated that his rifle had been re-stocked by "an enterprising Dutchman" with limited tools on the frontier. So, we know this type of work was done.

Looking at the Barnett gun, I agree with you about the buttstock. Other unusual features are the absence of the "baluster wrist" that was always seen on English trade guns, as well as on the Brown Bess. The subject gun has what I would describe as a simple "shotgun butt." The buttplate on this gun appears to have more rounded corners than you normally see on Northwest guns, and frankly it looks more comfortable. I think somebody either "improved" or replaced it. Finally, the carving around the lock looks very crude to me, suggesting the possible re-stock was done by someone competent but not a master of the craft. Maybe a blacksmith who did some gunsmithing when necessary. Northwest guns were relatively cheap, but they weren't this crude. I'm not certain of the wood on the Barnett gun, either. It doesn't look typical to me. Maybe a local Canadian wood like birch? I can't say.

It is an interesting gun!

Notchy Bob

In Charles Hanson's book "The Northwest trade gun" he states that the HBC gun was also known as the Northwest gun. The Indians called it the North gun and some English called it the Carolina gun. What then is the difference between the Carolina gun and the Northwest/HBC gun?

 

[Coinneach]

Go to YouTube grump gun Smith

Thank you sir.

 

[EN]

It was also called the Mackinaw gun.

 

[Rudyard]

Though nothing to do with the Fur trade .The gun trade sold guns To the Provincial Gun shop with what's ever name the customer wanted . But a Trade made To the Retail ironmonger or Gun shop bought & sold what where "Trade ' guns . All grades no thinking of far distant Native buyers. Though Im'e sure they would make such guns if ordered . Much Like Cutlery . Most Names are the' Factors' who ordered them Cutlers didn't & in my time still didn't care what name you wanted just as long as they got paid. "Nobody made Nowt" And them what did made it in Birmingham " is truer that most collectors think .
Rudyard

 

[tenngun]

In Charles Hanson's book "The Northwest trade gun" he states that the HBC gun was also known as the Northwest gun. The Indians called it the North gun and some English called it the Carolina gun. What then is the difference between the Carolina gun and the Northwest/HBC gun?

Style
The Carolina gun was an inexpensive gun mostly sold in the southern frontier. And generally styled after English Fowling pieces.
The French traded French trade guns similar but not all the fusil de chase as it varied shapes and furniture over the years.
The English in the northern colonies went head to head and the first NWG were made in imitation of the French guns
After the Revolution English guns switched to an English stock resembling the Brown Bess style stock. The simple sea serpent side plate would evolve in to the classic side plate.
This was the basic style through the rest of flintlock era. By the time percussion arrived the NWG was put on a rifled musket type stock similar to that seen on the Parker Hale type stocks

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

Not sure if I should ask this here of or a different section. Contemplating getting a NWTG kit from either Caywood or Sitting Fox. Any opinion on who makes the best kit? Which is easier to assemble figuring I get the lock pre-cut out? I know there is a big price difference between companies. My gun will be used for hunting, getting scratched and nicked up, not a gun just to be used on the range where it will be handled with care.

I had a Caywood officers fusil awhile back that was very well made (kit) and was totally happy with it, sold it to a turkey hunter.

 

[Arrow139]

In Charles Hanson's book "The Northwest trade gun" he states that the HBC gun was also known as the Northwest gun. The Indians called it the North gun and some English called it the Carolina gun. What then is the difference between the Carolina gun and the Northwest/HBC gun?

Style
The Carolina gun was an inexpensive gun mostly sold in the southern frontier. And generally styled after English Fowling pieces.
The French traded French trade guns similar but not all the fusil de chase as it varied shapes and furniture over the years.
The English in the northern colonies went head to head and the first NWG were made in imitation of the French guns
After the Revolution English guns switched to an English stock resembling the Brown Bess style stock. The simple sea serpent side plate would evolve in to the classic side plate.
This was the basic style through the rest of flintlock era. By the time percussion arrived the NWG was put on a rifled musket type stock similar to that seen on the Parker Hale type stocks

The Carolina Gun was a trade pattern gun designed in 1700, for the Native trade in New York State. Guns of this design were used for over half a century, and get their name from being used in the Carolina mountains against the French and their Native allies in the early 18th century. Beechwood stocks, 46" barrels, escutcheons on the wrists and fowler style brass hardware, with flat brass, mostly face forward engraved dragon sideplates. Hudson Bay Co. apparently adopted similar design about 1715 or so. Cast brass dragons with rearward turned heads came in c. Early 1750s, with Sir William Johnson and New York Indians, through the British Board of Trade. During the French and Indian War the British trade guns and Hudson Bay Co. were both using what we now call the Northwest Trade Gun, with iron trigger guards, flat brass buttplates, and dragon sideplates on a much straighter stock. Chiefs grade guns also came in about this same time, with triangular sideplate and engraved fowler brass. For documentation, see the book, The Art of the English Trade Gun in North America.