First of all Im new to black powder shooting. I was giving an Thompson Center 50 cal New Englander by my uncle. I started out shooting 70 grns of pyrodex with a 175 round ball with a .015 patch. I am running a dry patch between each shot and cannot get any kind of grouping pattern. I went up and down on powder load with no luck. Any help would be greatly appreciated the gun has a 1-48 twist barrel from what Ive read. Would the next size bigger patch might help. The barrel and rifling look good
not grouping at 25 yards
- Thread starter cokeman2
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What diameter is the group?
What sized ball are you shooting?
Is the ball cast or swaged?
What lubrication are you using on your patch?
Is this a pre lubes patch that came with the rifle? How old are the patches? Pre lubricated patches deteriorate with age. Get fresh patches, unlubricated and use spit or olive oil for lube.
Is the ball very difficult to load and could you be deforming the ball?
What sized ball are you shooting?
Is the ball cast or swaged?
What lubrication are you using on your patch?
Is this a pre lubes patch that came with the rifle? How old are the patches? Pre lubricated patches deteriorate with age. Get fresh patches, unlubricated and use spit or olive oil for lube.
Is the ball very difficult to load and could you be deforming the ball?
Just a guess but it sounds like your patches aren't holding up. Try to find some of your fired patches after you shoot. They should be about 12-15 ft from where you shoot. The patches should basically look good enough to use again. Give us some more detail and we can better help.
S.Kenton
58 Cal.
First of all...how does your bore look, is it rusty or shines? If it's dull or a little rusty try cleaning it with scotch brite and oil. Then clean it thouroughly. If the bore looks good then you might Try putting an overpowder card between the powder and patch..Also when I get a new rifle, I start with 5 grains less than the caliber of the barrel. Then work my up in 5 grain increments till I find that " sweet spot". .015 patch should work, but might try a .018.
Make sure your rest is good and solid before sighting in.
Shoot 3 times before making adjustments to the sights or loads.
Let us know how it goes....
Make sure your rest is good and solid before sighting in.
Shoot 3 times before making adjustments to the sights or loads.
Let us know how it goes....
Yes the Thompson Center products usually work well with a ball .010 less than the caliber and a .15 patch. My .54 New Englander likes a .530 round ball and a .15 pillow ticking patch. If the balls aren't factory made they may have problems.
Are you firing from a bench position? It's tough to really get a good idea about performance without a very tight position.
Next, are you sure the patch is .015? Was it labeled as such in the package or did you measure it yourself? I've had pattern problems with too thin a patch, AND with incorrect labels on patch thickness in store-bought patches. :wink:
Third..., have you recovered any of the spent patches and done an inspection? Are the patches burning through? Although less likely on a TC barrel than on a Pedersoli barrel, are you "cutting" patches? IF either is a happening, your gas pressures are not consistent on the ball..., and that will play havoc with your load. :shocked2:
LD
Are you firing from a bench position? It's tough to really get a good idea about performance without a very tight position.
Next, are you sure the patch is .015? Was it labeled as such in the package or did you measure it yourself? I've had pattern problems with too thin a patch, AND with incorrect labels on patch thickness in store-bought patches. :wink:
Third..., have you recovered any of the spent patches and done an inspection? Are the patches burning through? Although less likely on a TC barrel than on a Pedersoli barrel, are you "cutting" patches? IF either is a happening, your gas pressures are not consistent on the ball..., and that will play havoc with your load. :shocked2:
LD
Danny Ross
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My first question is, what are you using as patching material and is it 100% cotton? What lube are you using and how much are you putting on the patch, is my second question?
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Cokeman, first, welcome to the forum.
There are MANY things that cause a ML to not group. Everything said before me is valid, but here's my. 02
Have you checked your sights to make sure they aren't loose? I saw a guy spend all morning trying to sight in...turns out his rear sight was loose.
What kind of groups are you getting? If your expecting cutting the center out you may have to change ur thinking.
I mostly use spit for lube, just put a few dry patches in ur mouth..you'll know if they were once lubed REAL quick.
Also, be sure to use some kind of rest, just standing on ur hind legs wont get it for grouping.
Most of us have had a rifle that was hard to find what it likes ...don't give up.
Keep shooting!
There are MANY things that cause a ML to not group. Everything said before me is valid, but here's my. 02
Have you checked your sights to make sure they aren't loose? I saw a guy spend all morning trying to sight in...turns out his rear sight was loose.
What kind of groups are you getting? If your expecting cutting the center out you may have to change ur thinking.
I mostly use spit for lube, just put a few dry patches in ur mouth..you'll know if they were once lubed REAL quick.
Also, be sure to use some kind of rest, just standing on ur hind legs wont get it for grouping.
Most of us have had a rifle that was hard to find what it likes ...don't give up.
Keep shooting!
Ok Ill try to answer all of the questions you all have asked. The patches are prelubed TC patches and are labeled .015 they are new to me dont know how they were on the shelf, I dont have a way to measure them. The balls are .490 175 grain TC swaged round balls.I am using a bench in the standing position. The sights seem to be tight not loose at all. The barrel is not shiny but I stuck a bore light in and looked and did not see any pitting. I dont know how deep the grooving should be but I can see and feel the grooving in the barrel, when I run a dry patch down the barrel the rod turn about a Half of turn while I run it from the top to the bottom of the barrel. I dont know how old the gun is but I cleaned it before shooting it. The balls go in pretty easy on the first load after cleaning it and gets a little harder after about 3 shots.I thought I had it pretty close but last week I shot a 6 point buck at about 15 yards and I think I hit it High. I knocked him down and after the smoke cleared he kicked in front of me for about 90 seconds and was able to get up and run about 20 yards and fell again he feel a total of 4 times before I could reload. I felt really bad that this happened never found the deer. with that being said I wont hunt with this gun until I get it figured out. I dont mind missing a deer but I sure dont want to lame one like that. Let me know what you all think thanx again
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I'm sorry about the buck...I hit one with a 58 rb too high once that got away and still feel sick about it.
But what kind of groups are you gettting? A standing rest beats standing offhand, but a sitting bench will give better results.
The standard info for sighting in is thus : sight in dead on at around 13 yards and you should be about on at 75 yards, and wont need holdover or under from one distance to the other. But only shooting your gun will confirm this.
Were you using a rest? Standing, kneeling, etc? Its easy to pull off when shooting at game...most if honest will admit it. I try for a double lung shot usually : it gives a larger target.
If the bullet hits under the spine and above the lungs they can react like yours did. I know a bow hunter who hit one there and the next year a buck showed up with white hair and a scar on both sides where he had hit the previous year. He made a clean kill and calls it his "second chance" buck.
But what kind of groups are you gettting? A standing rest beats standing offhand, but a sitting bench will give better results.
The standard info for sighting in is thus : sight in dead on at around 13 yards and you should be about on at 75 yards, and wont need holdover or under from one distance to the other. But only shooting your gun will confirm this.
Were you using a rest? Standing, kneeling, etc? Its easy to pull off when shooting at game...most if honest will admit it. I try for a double lung shot usually : it gives a larger target.
If the bullet hits under the spine and above the lungs they can react like yours did. I know a bow hunter who hit one there and the next year a buck showed up with white hair and a scar on both sides where he had hit the previous year. He made a clean kill and calls it his "second chance" buck.
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It's always the gun's fault..... :haha:
Sadly, many have done just as you.. Get a gun with no experience, take it hunting and miss or wound a deer. :shake:
Check the rear sight....T/C rear sights have a clip retainer on the windage screw, if that retainer is missing you will never get it sighted in....Verify that the sight moves when adjusted.
Ditch the pre-lubed patches
Switch to pyrodex P if you're going to use pyrodex.
Clean the gun really well
Spend the next year shooting once a week.
Missing a deer at 15 yards is easier to do than one might think....That said the gun should shoot the same at 15 and 25 yards....
Was Buck fever a factor?
Sadly, many have done just as you.. Get a gun with no experience, take it hunting and miss or wound a deer. :shake:
Check the rear sight....T/C rear sights have a clip retainer on the windage screw, if that retainer is missing you will never get it sighted in....Verify that the sight moves when adjusted.
Ditch the pre-lubed patches
Switch to pyrodex P if you're going to use pyrodex.
Clean the gun really well
Spend the next year shooting once a week.
Missing a deer at 15 yards is easier to do than one might think....That said the gun should shoot the same at 15 and 25 yards....
Was Buck fever a factor?
Buck fever was for sure very HIGH. I was sitting in a ground blind on the edge of a road in the woods over looking a dry pond and the deer came from my left . I only saw him when he was about 10 yards to my left and he was walking like he was in a parade at a steady pace> my gun was leaning against a spare chair in the blind and I bumped something picking it up and he stopped straight in front of the blind. Im kinda ashamed at myself but it all happened about 10 seconds from when I first saw him and he stopped in front of me. I only found about 2 drops of blood where he fell and no more where he fell the 2nd and 3rd time so that made me think I hit hit him high. I looked for over 2 hrs then went and got my sons beagle to try and trail him but it was just too thick. I hope he will heal. But back to the groups , 1 time if would shoot 2in left and then shoot 2in right maybe high and then maybe low. I went as far as letting my son and another buddy shoot it and they had no luck either. Im not going to give up but Ill just wait for general gun to start before I hunt anymore its only a week away. Maybe Ill try and find an Inline rifle that I can mount a scope before next year
How abrasive can I get with the barrel and not do any damage to the rifeling. I put a 50 cal brush on my patch rod and ran it back and forth hooked to a cordless drill. Can I get more abrasive than that and not damage the grooves?
hanshi
Cannon
Sounds like you hit him near the spine without damaging it. Just a couple drops of blood usually means a minor muscle wound and the high hit just stunned him.
Buy some pillow ticking - it's about .015" - and lube with Hoppes #9 BP lube - it allows many rounds to be fired without wiping - or TOW mink oil. Do check those fired patches. Also have someone else shoot your rifle to see if it's your shooting technique that's at fault.
Buy some pillow ticking - it's about .015" - and lube with Hoppes #9 BP lube - it allows many rounds to be fired without wiping - or TOW mink oil. Do check those fired patches. Also have someone else shoot your rifle to see if it's your shooting technique that's at fault.
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Its surprising how many shooters/hunters haven't used iron sights on game. My best friend, 53yo, had never killed anything bigger than a rabbit with iron sights until a few years ago he took a nice buck w a 54cal TC. He still doesnt trust irons...preferring to use CF rifles with scope. And I hadn't taken a deer with irons until about 13 years ago.
I know personally and seeing coworkers at the range that it is hard sometimes to trust the irons, cause so many are used to scopes. I've seen many surprised by what irons will do. You just have to spend time using and trust them.
I know personally and seeing coworkers at the range that it is hard sometimes to trust the irons, cause so many are used to scopes. I've seen many surprised by what irons will do. You just have to spend time using and trust them.
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cokeman2 said:
I wouldn't use a drill with a brush on my rifle AT ALL! Use patches with solvent, if they come back rusty then you need lots of scrubbing, try some Scotch brite....if they dont come back at all...well you have a problem.
Well as you get older your eyes get weaker and you want to do everything you can to make a humane kill. When I was a kid I could hit a bottle cap at 15 yards wit a BB gun. We just have to adjust the best way we can as we get older.
Danny Ross
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Out of curiosity how big are the groups you are getting? I just thought of something are you covering the target with the front sight or are you placing what you want to hit on top of the front sight? DANNY
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Cokeman, I know at this point you probably feel like your suffering from Data Overload...but most on here only want to help. I didn't mean it as criticism when I spoke of iron sights...everytime I qualify with a shoulder arm I surprise myself, cause my eyes aren't what they once were. It doesn't feel natural if you are used to scopes...and I used scopes for years. Maybe my job requiring us to use irons helped me, I'm not sure.
If you are familiar with peep sights an easy peep is a small "L" bracket from the hardware store, mounting it thru your tang hole, then drilling a hole to shoot through. Get a couple, mess with one drilling holes in it, then drill a single hole in the other one and mount it. Many on here use them and sing their praises.
One more thing...keep shooting the renegade...change one thing at a time. Black powder isn't as sensitive as smokeless, you can go up or down 5 or 10 grains at a time til you find something it likes.
If you are familiar with peep sights an easy peep is a small "L" bracket from the hardware store, mounting it thru your tang hole, then drilling a hole to shoot through. Get a couple, mess with one drilling holes in it, then drill a single hole in the other one and mount it. Many on here use them and sing their praises.
One more thing...keep shooting the renegade...change one thing at a time. Black powder isn't as sensitive as smokeless, you can go up or down 5 or 10 grains at a time til you find something it likes.
I'm betting the main reason for the poor accuracy is the patches you are using.
Thompson Center quit making sidelock rifles years ago and the modern things they sell now don't use patches and roundballs.
Pre-lubed patches material looses its strength after a year or so, so I think your patches are being blown apart when the gun fires.
Either buy unlubricated patches or buy some thick cotton material with a tight weave.
The blue and white or red and white "pillow ticking" sold at Walmart or many sewing stores works pretty good.
When you test fire your gun, find some of the shot patches.
The area where the ball met the bore should not have any rips, tares or burns thru it.
Outside that contact area, the patch can be tattered and shredded. Nothing wrong with that. It's what happens to cloth when it meets a supersonic blast of wind.
Shot from a sitting position, your gun should be able to produce a 1 inch diameter group without a problem assuming your eyesight and your hold on the gun is good.
Thompson Center quit making sidelock rifles years ago and the modern things they sell now don't use patches and roundballs.
Pre-lubed patches material looses its strength after a year or so, so I think your patches are being blown apart when the gun fires.
Either buy unlubricated patches or buy some thick cotton material with a tight weave.
The blue and white or red and white "pillow ticking" sold at Walmart or many sewing stores works pretty good.
When you test fire your gun, find some of the shot patches.
The area where the ball met the bore should not have any rips, tares or burns thru it.
Outside that contact area, the patch can be tattered and shredded. Nothing wrong with that. It's what happens to cloth when it meets a supersonic blast of wind.
Shot from a sitting position, your gun should be able to produce a 1 inch diameter group without a problem assuming your eyesight and your hold on the gun is good.
