longcruise
70 Cal.
Wondering what that avatar means to you?
Obturation of a patched round ball...real or imagined?
- Thread starter Billnpatti
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Wondering what that avatar means to you?
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2013
- Messages
- 20,091
- Reaction score
- 1,025
marmotslayer said:
That without definition or prior knowledge, things are left open to interpretation.
Makes me wonder what you thought.
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2013
- Messages
- 20,091
- Reaction score
- 1,025
By using a removable breach and pushing the ball straight through, By repeated experiments that yield the same results.marmotslayer said:
By measuring.
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2011
- Messages
- 9,511
- Reaction score
- 4,669
Bill, I'm planning a test with my .54 hand gun.
I seated and pulled a ball last night in the muzzle using a .530 ball and my normal patch material of .018.It left a nice weave pattern over the lands and just a trace in the groove.
The plan is to shoot the same ball into some oiled saw dust media I have made up for a capture tube starting with a light load of about 20 grains and comparing before and after photos. The light load should minimize impact distortion so we can still get a good photo of any expansion on the ball waist band. I like the word obturation personally because every one knows what were talking about now.
The patch weave and rifling , ball waist band imprint, should be lengthened from what was shown on the loaded and pulled ball.
I would think that should prove the theory quite adequately, no?
I seated and pulled a ball last night in the muzzle using a .530 ball and my normal patch material of .018.It left a nice weave pattern over the lands and just a trace in the groove.
The plan is to shoot the same ball into some oiled saw dust media I have made up for a capture tube starting with a light load of about 20 grains and comparing before and after photos. The light load should minimize impact distortion so we can still get a good photo of any expansion on the ball waist band. I like the word obturation personally because every one knows what were talking about now.
The patch weave and rifling , ball waist band imprint, should be lengthened from what was shown on the loaded and pulled ball.
I would think that should prove the theory quite adequately, no?
I don't think Cynthialee is trying to discourage, and you do have a good point about opinions.M.D. said:
People should listen to all opinions and draw their own conclusions. One conclusion could be, that it doesn't matter. Sometimes, a thing being true or not actually is of no consequence.
longcruise
70 Cal.
You still have to catch the ball!
I'm looking forward to MD's results and hoping for pictures.
As for the avatar, if you don't know what it is, then why are you suggesting it "says it all"? If it did mean something to you, we would probably have some tales to share.
I'm looking forward to MD's results and hoping for pictures.
As for the avatar, if you don't know what it is, then why are you suggesting it "says it all"? If it did mean something to you, we would probably have some tales to share.
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2013
- Messages
- 20,091
- Reaction score
- 1,025
That's the easy part.....been doing it for decades.
As for the avatar, yes I know what it means. My point was that very, very few would. A lot like this whole topic.
And no I don't have any stories to share. :grin:
.
Me Too and Pletch's also :thumbsup:
So, how was Fort Holabird, MD between 1965 & 1971? Or were you at Fort Hauchuca, AZ from '71 to '74?
Likely better than Indian Territory. ;-)
Thank you for your service.
Likely better than Indian Territory. ;-)
Thank you for your service.
Larry Pletcher
50 Cal.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2006
- Messages
- 1,313
- Reaction score
- 67
MD,
My complements on your plan. I have thought about an oil/sawdust capture box.I hope you are successful with it. I have bullet shooter friends who use them. I have been unsure of my setup for the box. I would be interested in your design.
Regards,
pletch
My complements on your plan. I have thought about an oil/sawdust capture box.I hope you are successful with it. I have bullet shooter friends who use them. I have been unsure of my setup for the box. I would be interested in your design.
Regards,
pletch
longcruise
70 Cal.
Aha! Someone who actually knows what it is.
The "Bird" '65 & '66, then to ft Bragg to form replacement companies for the 525th, then off to Saigon and then assigned to the 149th (SMIAT) in the delta. Had an unfortunate incident of our safe house being bombed which sent me to the 3rd field hospital in Saigon. When I was ready to return to duty it was off to Hue for the rest of my tour. Finished my hitch in DC, which I enjoyed immensely?
So, are you an alum?
The "Bird" '65 & '66, then to ft Bragg to form replacement companies for the 525th, then off to Saigon and then assigned to the 149th (SMIAT) in the delta. Had an unfortunate incident of our safe house being bombed which sent me to the 3rd field hospital in Saigon. When I was ready to return to duty it was off to Hue for the rest of my tour. Finished my hitch in DC, which I enjoyed immensely?
So, are you an alum?
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2011
- Messages
- 9,511
- Reaction score
- 4,669
Well here is the results of the ball testing I did tonight catching them in oiled saw dust.
I changed the protocol a bit as I did not fire the same ball after pulling it but rather used it as a control for each of the other four that I fired increasing the charge by 10 grains each time.
Also I would like to correct an error I made previously as I said I found some slight cloth imprint in the groove of the pulled ball. I did but it turned out to be .535 instead of the .530 that I ran the test on.
All the test balls were factory Speer swaged balls.
I measured the widest weave imprint with calipers that I could find on each ball.
Some of them were distorted from impact as the charge went up.
Here are the readings.
1. .150- pulled ball
2. .155- 20 grains 2F Goex
3. .140- 30 grains 2F Goex ball pretty banged up
4. .170 - 40 grains " "
5. .170 - 50 grains " "
It appears that some obturation is occurring but I was surprised to find not nearly as much as I expected.
All balls were seated the same way with a brass loading rod started with the heel of my hand.
I would expect a rifle to make a good bit more obturation and it appears that it stopped in this gun at about 40 grains of 2F from what I could see and measure with the calipers using an optivisor.
This is the set up I used with oiled saw dust and piece of stove pipe against a stack of newspaper in the bottom.
I tamped the sawdust down to compress it in the stove pipe and stood above it on the table so if the ball exited It would go into the plywood floor with compacted sand underneath.
All shots went straight down through the stove pipe sawdust and were recovered at the bottom of the column.
Pulled ball and 20gr. charge ball.
30 and 40 gr. charge balls
50 gr. charge ball
I changed the protocol a bit as I did not fire the same ball after pulling it but rather used it as a control for each of the other four that I fired increasing the charge by 10 grains each time.
Also I would like to correct an error I made previously as I said I found some slight cloth imprint in the groove of the pulled ball. I did but it turned out to be .535 instead of the .530 that I ran the test on.
All the test balls were factory Speer swaged balls.
I measured the widest weave imprint with calipers that I could find on each ball.
Some of them were distorted from impact as the charge went up.
Here are the readings.
1. .150- pulled ball
2. .155- 20 grains 2F Goex
3. .140- 30 grains 2F Goex ball pretty banged up
4. .170 - 40 grains " "
5. .170 - 50 grains " "
It appears that some obturation is occurring but I was surprised to find not nearly as much as I expected.
All balls were seated the same way with a brass loading rod started with the heel of my hand.
I would expect a rifle to make a good bit more obturation and it appears that it stopped in this gun at about 40 grains of 2F from what I could see and measure with the calipers using an optivisor.
This is the set up I used with oiled saw dust and piece of stove pipe against a stack of newspaper in the bottom.
I tamped the sawdust down to compress it in the stove pipe and stood above it on the table so if the ball exited It would go into the plywood floor with compacted sand underneath.
All shots went straight down through the stove pipe sawdust and were recovered at the bottom of the column.
Pulled ball and 20gr. charge ball.
30 and 40 gr. charge balls
50 gr. charge ball
Larry Pletcher
50 Cal.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2006
- Messages
- 1,313
- Reaction score
- 67
Great job, MD,
I appreciate the effort in your method. I am interested in your oil/sawdust pipe. Do you have any advice on the oil to sawdust ratio? I can get both but don't know how much oil to use in the mix. Also did any of the balls get all the way to the paper at the bottom? Is there any easy way to remove the ball? I could see having to take the whole thing apart to get the ball.
Thanks again for your time and effort,
Pletch
I appreciate the effort in your method. I am interested in your oil/sawdust pipe. Do you have any advice on the oil to sawdust ratio? I can get both but don't know how much oil to use in the mix. Also did any of the balls get all the way to the paper at the bottom? Is there any easy way to remove the ball? I could see having to take the whole thing apart to get the ball.
Thanks again for your time and effort,
Pletch
marmotslayer said:
Bingo! Depending on the loading technique used a ball may very well be deformed upon loading. I used to load a .457" prb into a .45 cal. Douglas barrel. I'm certain it was more slug shaped going in than round. Seating pressure may also cause deformation. There is much we do not know.
As much as I applaud :applause: your efforts, I don't feel the tests prove anything. When I am trying a new barrel/ball/patch combo I will pre-test the fit by putting a ball about 2" down the bore with a large hunk of the lubed patch cloth I intend to use. Then I pull it out and inspect. If the ball does not show both patch weave and rifling indentations all around the equator I'm not satisfied and will look to using a larger ball. Methinks you need a larger ball for the tests. Also, the skeptik in me wonders about your catch media and if it might distort on impact. Right now the swimming pool catch looks like the best idea yet.
Billnpatti
Cannon
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2008
- Messages
- 7,340
- Reaction score
- 44
Beautiful work!!!! :thumbsup: Thank you very much. Your well designed experiment and Pletch's proposed photography work will satisfy my curiosity in this regard. Of course, as any well designed experiment, it will provide a sound basis upon which further studies can be based should someone decide to do so.
Well done! Well done, in deed! :hatsoff: :hatsoff:
Well done! Well done, in deed! :hatsoff: :hatsoff:
Billnpatti
Cannon
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2008
- Messages
- 7,340
- Reaction score
- 44
As you truly say "There is much we do not know." But, I am very impressed with what MD has done and what Pletch is proposing to do. I think they are making great strides in closing that gap in our knowledge.
I fully agree that a swimming pool might be a better idea. However, a private outdoor swimming pool where one could conduct such an experiment...... in Alaska???? Do such things exist up there? :idunno: I've never been to Alaska so I don't know but it just doesn't seem like they would be able to have such things. Perhaps MD can tell us if there is a pool where he could conduct the experiment. It would be sweet if there was but I do have my doubts.
Be that as it may, I am impressed with his work using his saw dust/oil catch device and I am looking forward to the results of Pletch's proposed photography experiments.
I fully agree that a swimming pool might be a better idea. However, a private outdoor swimming pool where one could conduct such an experiment...... in Alaska???? Do such things exist up there? :idunno: I've never been to Alaska so I don't know but it just doesn't seem like they would be able to have such things. Perhaps MD can tell us if there is a pool where he could conduct the experiment. It would be sweet if there was but I do have my doubts.
Be that as it may, I am impressed with his work using his saw dust/oil catch device and I am looking forward to the results of Pletch's proposed photography experiments.
Black Jaque Janaviac
40 Cal.
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2009
- Messages
- 535
- Reaction score
- 73
Seriously, if you wanted to test this use snow to catch the ball. Fresh virgin snow with a shot that gradually skims across the top. The ball shouldn't go more than a few inches deep, but it goes many FEET across the snow. So you just track the path until you find the last point where the ball dives into the snow and dig along the path. The ball will look exactly as it came out of the barrel.
Unfortunately, there isn't any snow left in this part of Ouisconsin. I'll have to wait until next winter.
I would use one of those CO2 dischargers as a control to see how much obturation is caused by loading.
As far as why it would matter - it is simple - sometimes knowing what is going on inside the barrel helps you trouble shoot accuracy problems. Obturation matters for the same reason collecting spent patches matters. Sure you can find a load without ever recovering a spent patch, but finding the spent patches can help you get to that load more quickly.
Unfortunately, there isn't any snow left in this part of Ouisconsin. I'll have to wait until next winter.
I would use one of those CO2 dischargers as a control to see how much obturation is caused by loading.
As far as why it would matter - it is simple - sometimes knowing what is going on inside the barrel helps you trouble shoot accuracy problems. Obturation matters for the same reason collecting spent patches matters. Sure you can find a load without ever recovering a spent patch, but finding the spent patches can help you get to that load more quickly.
Larry Pletcher
50 Cal.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2006
- Messages
- 1,313
- Reaction score
- 67
As far as catching the ball without deformation - I don't know what is best. But both MD and I know how much deformation is caused by loading. We have both pulled a loaded ball back out and measured it. That part I'm confident of. I used the same tool to load as I do on the range.
What remains is the ability to separate deformation caused by firing and deformation caused by catching the ball. I think that MD is on the right track. If that process leaves us still in doubt, then a photograph as the ball separates from the patch (if it works) is about the only other solution, IMHO.
Regards,
Pletch
What remains is the ability to separate deformation caused by firing and deformation caused by catching the ball. I think that MD is on the right track. If that process leaves us still in doubt, then a photograph as the ball separates from the patch (if it works) is about the only other solution, IMHO.
Regards,
Pletch
