Octagon to Round

[Cattywompuss]

I've held an original in flintlock that was octagon to round, it balanced nicely...Their was no real reason that rifles couldn't have had round barrels, it was basically how the Germans wanted to do it, their style if you will....

Fair enough... what do you mean "wanted to do it"? They made them octagonal. Why would they have not filed or hammered down the flats if they wanted them round?

 

[Cattywompuss]

It seems that if the Germans had the skill to make them round AND strong, they would have taken that route rather than swamping/taper and flaring. Partial octagonal barrels exist to impart strength to what we would today call the chamber. In smoothbores it makes sense. There is less emphasis on precision, but needed strength for the discharge of heavy loads. But in rifles, rigidity and strength for higher pressure all the way to the muzzle would be more desirable, just as modern bull barrels seek to minimize harmonics. Of course, in the 21st century we can make sub MOA rifles that have what are called pencil barrels, but even the M24 and M40 have exceedingly heavy barrels for the modern era.

Why would the Germans fail at achieving at round barrel if there were no "real reason" for it not to be round? In the absence of compensatory technology thing are over-engineered to compensate for weakest point in the complimentary level of tech. The B-36 and B-29 bombers are examples of this. They were basically underpowered and oversized B-17s that became obsolete as soon as the B-52 came into being. There is usually a real reason something is or is not.

 

[George]

I'm not intending to acquire an octagon to round Rifled barrel. I was just wondering if it was done historically.

It was done historically. I have a book by The Kentucky Rifle Association, _The Kentucky Rifle....a True American Heritage in Picture_. It details 100 rifles. Three of them are octagon to round and rifled.

1) signed J.P. Beck, barrel 43 1/2", .52 caliber, rifled
2) signed Frederic Sell barrel 47 1/4", .52 caliber, rifled
3) maker unknown, probably made in Virginia, barrel 52 3/4", .38 caliber, rifled

Spence

 

[Mark Herman]

I have a Seibert smooth rifle with an octagon to round.

 

[Cattywompuss]

I have a Seibert smooth rifle with an octagon to round.

I also have a similar smoothrifle. Looking for riflerifles

 

[Packrat]

The Harpers Ferry, Lewis & Clark Rifles come to mind

 

[Flintandsteel]

To sum up the OP’s original question…… YES, it was historic. Oct/round rifled barrels were used in our past.
Not the most common, but they are there.
A beautiful Herman Rupp comes to mind.

 

[Atticus69]

Anyone have an octagon to round Rifled gun? I'm not looking to buy one, just wondering if anyone has an actual longrifle with a octagon to round barrel. I have a .60 smoothrifle with a 1/3 octagon to round, but anyone got a grooved rifle with one? I know Sharps and Remington and so forth did it later with BPCRs, but specifically wondering if anyone has a trad longrifle with such a barrel?

Yes, 45 and 54.

 

[Rudyard]

Is it useless? I guess it could be, but I've never thought of ballast stones as useless in a man of war. I don't like muzzle-heavy guns, but I do like balance. My best balanced gun has a tapered and flared barrel. But, I do like certain guns to point like magic wands.

Yes its useless it wouldn t matter if ballast in a 'Man of war'. But since you like ballance what does foreward dead wieght do for that ? .Re rifle barrels they Need to be heavier for stability . Of two guns rifle patched ball & smooth the smooth fireing shot with loads typically exceeding the fitting naked balls wieght are more stressed that with a heavier barrel. The rifleing isnt to do with strenght its to do with holding it steadier. and the spinning the ball . Rifleing is detremental to velocity & force. but the barrels are better suited to long ranges ,Whilst the shot gun needs be readily brought up to shoot moveing game or clays w ,h, y, Its thin wall stands more stress by the upsett of fireing of shot ( With a ball it can only fit round it's edges ). Ever notice the dimples on recovered shot ? ,ever try to place a wad in the muzzle then load shot & a top wad , Then try push it down? .Of course if you like lugging useless weight then fine but I don't and to me its Useless wieght .
Rudyard

 

[Cattywompuss]

Yes its useless it wouldn t matter if ballast in a 'Man of war'. But since you like ballance what does foreward dead wieght do for that ? .Re rifle barrels they Need to be heavier for stability . Of two guns rifle patched ball & smooth the smooth fireing shot with loads typically exceeding the fitting naked balls wieght are more stressed that with a heavier barrel. The rifleing isnt to do with strenght its to do with holding it steadier. and the spinning the ball . Rifleing is detremental to velocity & force. but the barrels are better suited to long ranges ,Whilst the shot gun needs be readily brought up to shoot moveing game or clays w ,h, y, Its thin wall stands more stress by the upsett of fireing of shot ( With a ball it can only fit round it's edges ). Ever notice the dimples on recovered shot ? ,ever try to place a wad in the muzzle then load shot & a top wad , Then try push it down? .Of course if you like lugging useless weight then fine but I don't and to me its Useless wieght .
Rudyard

Looking for the relevance in most of your post. Dead weight in the right places is the definition of balance. If you could see how chunky I am you would know I love carrying useless weight. Over 200lb and under 6ft, that's me.

 

[Rudyard]

Re relevance look harder ' Re your size well its your choice . You are lugging the gun not me .
Rudyard

 

[Cpt Flint]

Re relevance look harder ' Re your size well its your choice . You are lugging the gun not me .
Rudyard

Talk about murdering the King’s English!

 

[nchawkeye]

Fair enough... what do you mean "wanted to do it"? They made them octagonal. Why would they have not filed or hammered down the flats if they wanted them round?

Maybe I didn't word it correctly...The Germans could have made the barrels round, they made them octagon because that was their style or how they wanted to do it...This was explained to me during one of Wallace Gusler's talks that I heard years ago...Anyone that has had anything to do with German engineers dang sure knows how bull headed they can be...Remember, before the Revolution there were very few barrels or locks being made in America, most were imported...The Moravians kept excellent records and would order barrels that were not rifled and rifle them themselves...

 

[William Lincoln]

Octagon allows putting in vice and holding while boring or working.
Round saves weight and snags less.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Maybe I didn't word it correctly...The Germans could have made the barrels round, they made them octagon because that was their style or how they wanted to do it...This was explained to me during one of Wallace Gusler's talks that I heard years ago...Anyone that has had anything to do with German engineers dang sure knows how bull headed they can be...Remember, before the Revolution there were very few barrels or locks being made in America, most were imported...The Moravians kept excellent records and would order barrels that were not rifled and rifle them themselves...

I reckon it's possible it was purely "that's the way we've always done it", but this doesn't entirely hold up historically. With the end of the 18th century, swamping disappeared and full or tapered octagons became all the more prevalent, and with wider diameters, even stretching until the end of the 19th Century. I've even seen a strangely beautiful 1895 Winchester with a full length tapered octagon barrel. The Germans of Pennsylvania could have only have had a ghost of an influence on the continued prevalence of such barrel types, with the exception being muskets and newer steel barreled guns. Once steel became prevalent over iron, extra metal became superfluous, yet still desirable. Even with steel, the best gunmakers in America continued to offer octagonal barrels on repeaters and even .22LR rolling blocks and pumps. Was it merely because of tradition? Or because a full octagon barrel is more durable in harsh conditions? Customers in my shop today even seem to lose their heads over an Octagon barreled Henry .22.

Rudyard prattled on about weight being the biggest factor of why an octagon to round is superior, but weight is a peripheral reason for something as basic as a small arm to have a change made. And having carried a 24lb machinegun in combat, I wanted to save weight everywhere. I doubt if I'd have considered saving it on my gun, if it would in any way lessen durability or accuracy. If, as a modern person carrying a weapon hunting, I wanted to save weight, I probably wouldn't be a member of this forum. Nor would I shoot muzzleloader of any stripe. I own an ultralite modern mountain rifle with a Kevlar reinforced stock, stainless barrel, scaled action, etc. And I've owned ultramodern BH209 wonderguns. And I am slightly skeptical that a cutting edge weapon 250 years ago had a certain barrel shape and build because of stubbornness. Skeptical, I say, but not stubborn. Always open to being wrong.

 

[William Lincoln]

The heavy octagon barrel adds weight and moderates muzzle rise like a "bull barrel"
common in sniper rifles. But it adds weight which is a negative.

 

[tenngun]

Style dictates often more then use.
A look at clothing brings this home.
Gunmakers catered to what people wanted, and people wanted what makers had to sell if it stood out.
Lehigh valley guns come to mind. Was there a reason for their shape, or was it just to be attractive and more importantly different from Lancasters.
SMR too took their own turn.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Style dictates often more then use.
A look at clothing brings this home.
Gunmakers catered to what people wanted, and people wanted what makers had to sell if it stood out.
Lehigh valley guns come to mind. Was there a reason for their shape, or was it just to be attractive and more importantly different from Lancasters.
SMR too took their own turn.

When going far west(1820-1850) folks apparently wanted even heavier octagon barrels that would survive being stomped by a buffalo or falling into a ravine. And careful with the SMR remarks. Some SMR folks think they are the ultimate in functional form. Personally, I cut the top spur off my only crescent buttplated gun, which is sure to draw the ire of the hardcore of the SMR crowd

Weirdly enough, the buffalo stomping almost did occur in Creswells account of traveling west. No lives were lost. But a heap of flower in a canoe got rurnt.

 

[tenngun]

I do think Brown Bess is the most beautiful military gun ever made, SMR the most beautiful American rifles, and TFC the most beautiful of smoothbore civilian guns.

 

[French Colonial]

A very long octagon to round barrel can be to muzzle heavy for my taste although it is more common for a straight octagon barrel to be to muzzle heavy.

There have been many arguments over why older octagon barrels were swamped but I believe it was done on purpose to achieve balance. The same can be done with a tapered octagon or a shorter octagon to round than what I referenced above.

FOR ME! I prefer the center of balance to be just forward of the trigger guard by 3-4 inches and behind my forward hand, that is where I do my best off hand work...at least it was when I could see.

A good octagon to round will have a little longer barrel than a full octagon with the same balance point, this may have been an advantage back in the day if the older powders needed a little more room for expansion. Drawbacks are they are easier to bend (lets not go there) and you can not dovetail a front sight if the barrel is thin so no additional windage available with a fixed/soldered front sight.

Their all good, some better than others.