OFF HAND SHOOTING

[Tb54]

call me lisdexic, but the first time I read the title l was sure it said, “SHOOTING HAND OFF”




I grew up shooting all sorts of long guns as often as I could, and for years tried to follow the conventional wisdom I was told, to squeeze the trigger, slowly and it should be a “surprise” when it goes off. My shooting greatly improved when I realized that was BS. No one with a heart beat can hold on target that long to allow a “surprise” discharge to be on target. Once I realized that, I learned to Controll my wobble by coming in low to the target, raising the sights to the bull, and firing when I wanted the gun to fire, at the instant my controlled movement brought the sights to the target. When I was late teens, I was shooting the primer out of shotgun shells at 40yds with my air rifle and iron sights. Some folks disagree with me, but they can’t argue with my shooting.

Of course the down side is, I haven’t developed my skills in the other shooting positions, and have difficulty sighting in from a bench. I’ve also always been a neck shooter, because I could, but that resulted in very little practice following a blood trail, a skill which would have come in handy when the kids started hunting.

 

[longcruise]

Dave, must be a bunch of wimps if they won't shoot their cannons offhand!

 

[Coot]

SO THOSE OLMPIC SHOOTERS HAVE NO EXCUSE IF THEY MISS A SHOT I CAN BE FAIR ERRERD ALLOWN IF THE BALL GOES WRONG.
HUMMM
I WONDER IF THEY ALSO MAKE CERTAIN THE BALL IS THAT OFF BALANCE WITH A LIGHT INCLUSION OR AIR BUBBLE WHICH I HAVE FOUND BEHIND SOME WILD SHOTS.
TSK...
DUTCH

Having shot pistols with either custom or adjustable stocks and adjustable triggers, these things make it easier to shoot well. Unfortunately, by themselves, they don't make one shoot well. Its like adjusting sights - until one shoots groups, there is no point in adjusting sights.

 

[Dr5x]

Having shot pistols with either custom or adjustable stocks and adjustable triggers, these things make it easier to shoot well. Unfortunately, by themselves, they don't make one shoot well. Its like adjusting sights - until one shoots groups, there is no point in adjusting sights.

SOME OF THOSE ADJUSTABLE SIGHTS AND TRIGGERS CAN MAKE YOU SHOOT BADLY TIL YOU LEARN HOW TO CONTROL THEM
I USED THE DOUBLE SET TRIGGER BUT NOT SO LIGHT A TOUCH THAT THE RIFLE WOULD GO OFF WAAAY TOO UNEXPECTEDLY. THE GIMMICK I TREASURED THE MOST WAS THE REAR APERTURE SIGHT THAT AUTOMATICALLY CENTERED MY EYE SO ALL I HAD TO WORRY ABOUT WAS MY FRONT SIGHT AND THE TARGET. I NOTICED THAT THE MILITARY LONGER ARMS I WAS GIVEN HAD REAR APERTURE REAR SIGHTS.
DUTCH SIGHTS

 

[Erwan]

I WONDER IF THEY ALSO MAKE CERTAIN THE BALL IS THAT OFF BALANCE WITH A LIGHT INCLUSION OR AIR BUBBLE

Each ball is weighed and rolled....

 

[Dr5x]

Each ball is weighed and rolled....

I thought they would. SWAT team reloads weigh carefully is I knew the Olympic rifle would require the same
Dutch

 

[Dphar1950]

Nothing wrong with a generic rifle, if it fits you. A good shot with a generic rifle that is a poor fit will rarely beat a good shot with a generic rifle that is a good fit. Simple but true. And we are discussing 'offhand', not any of the positions. Shooting from a rest is a great equalizer for guns that don't fit well. If everyone had to do all of their shooting offhand then 'fit' would become much, much more important.

Have you ever shot NRA Service Rifle? One size fits all. Stock pull on my fixed stock "service rifle" is 13 3/4" and if you are 6'6" its the same. Current rules allow adjustable stocks but the really get little longer than this. The will get shorter and some use them for this is some positions. Some original Kentucky rifles have trigger pulls close to 12" and many are around 13". Making a rifle with a 14" pull that looks right compared to the original with a 12" pull can be challenging. One of the best offhand FLs I every owned was way too long. I screwed up stocking it, but I was young. There are some really strange stock patterns on original rifles. A friend has a rifle another friend built in the 1950s off an original he had access to. It was pretty clumsy until he shot it off a "plank rest" then he found it was perfect for that. Then we have to remember that in the flintlock era most rifle matches were shot off a rest. "chunk" or plank rests. Just as the beef and turkey matches in the East were always run. This is a 19th c painting of a winter time plank rest match in NY I think the painting is from the 1870s showing a match he had witnessed sometime earlier. Shooting offhand was considered a poor test of a rifle.

 

[Dphar1950]

The man in front right with the cigar appears to have a tube sight.

 

[Mad Irish Jack]

Dry fire aides. Make flint aides by taking an old ruler or yardstick, Cut the proper length and width for your hammer jaws to make a wooden flint. Make enough to replace if they wear out or break. My friends had percussion guns and they'd buy a hard rubber tubing that the ID fit snug on the nipple and cut the tubing to 1/16"+ longer than the nipple so it was that high over the top so the nipple didn't take the hit, just the tubing. They also stored the gun with it in place. I'd do my hunting dry fire practice at the TV outdoor shows and my videos. Animals aplenty and none get hurted, so to say. Other times it's a paper target on the wall. My pals used to say when I shot, it was as though the butt hit my shoulder and the gun'd go "fshboom!"It'd seem the trigger was the butt of the stock. My shooting belief was than the sights align ON TARGET, and you can say bang and then pull the trigger. Your Late! If your sighting targets (not live game) and are holding 15 seconds; relax and restart. My $.02

 

[Dphar1950]

Stance, natural point of aim are all important and can be determined by dry firing in your living room or basement etc. Also tight or loose grip on the gun can be a factor. Gotta experiment. I break the trigger when the sights are on the target. The only thing I shoot with the hold and squeeze theory is FL pistol. If you get on the trigger to quick here dropping the muzzle will generally always occur before the ball exits. Unless it has a set trigger. And I may be converting the pistol I usually shoot in matches to a single set. Dunno yet. Holding in standing more than 10 seconds is a mistake. Shooting standing is a MENTAL thing as well as physical and having MENTAL discipline is critical. Lose this and an off shot is certain.

 

[Dr5x]

Stance, natural point of aim are all important and can be determined by dry firing in your living room or basement etc. Also tight or loose grip on the gun can be a factor. Gotta experiment. I break the trigger when the sights are on the target. The only thing I shoot with the hold and squeeze theory is FL pistol. If you get on the trigger to quick here dropping the muzzle will generally always occur before the ball exits. Unless it has a set trigger. And I may be converting the pistol I usually shoot in matches to a single set. Dunno yet. Holding in standing more than 10 seconds is a mistake. Shooting standing is a MENTAL thing as well as physical and having MENTAL discipline is critical. Lose this and an off shot is certain.

THIS WAS A GOOD POST BECAUSE IT MADE ME THINK.RIFLE FIT TO THE SHOOTER IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR OFF HAND SHOOTERS. I DEALLY A GOOD FIT IS ONE WHERE EVERYTHING IS IN ITS PLACE WHEN YOU BRING THE RIFLE TO BEAR ON THE TARGET WITH NO STRETCHING OR EXTRA CROUCHING IS REQUIRED TO BRING YOUR EYE RIGHT WHERE IT SHOULD BE AS YOU LOOK AT THE TARGET'
MY TEST OF A RIFLE IS HOW WELL IT SHOOTS, RESTING ON A SUPPORT THAT ELIMINATES ANY OF THE TWITCHING OR BODY MOVEMENT OF THE RIFLEMAN.. SHOOTING IN THAT POSITION TELLS YOU THAT IS THE VERY BEST SHOOTING YOU ARE GOING TO GET OUT OF THAT RIFLE AND DANIEL BOONE HIMSELF COULDN'T DO BETTER. THAT;S WHERE I LOOK TO IMPROVE THE GROOUPS A RIFLE CAN GET BENCH REST BY ADJUSTING ALL THE VARIABLES THAT AFFECT ITS PERFORMANCE. BALL SIZE. POWDER CHARGE, PATCH ACTUAL THICKNESS WHEN EMPLOYED AND DEGREE OF LUBRICATION.
DUTCH SCHOULTZ

 

[Dr5x]

THIS WAS A GOOD POST BECAUSE IT MADE ME THINK.RIFLE FIT TO THE SHOOTER IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR OFF HAND SHOOTERS. I DEALLY A GOOD FIT IS ONE WHERE EVERYTHING IS IN ITS PLACE WHEN YOU BRING THE RIFLE TO BEAR ON THE TARGET WITH NO STRETCHING OR EXTRA CROUCHING IS REQUIRED TO BRING YOUR EYE RIGHT WHERE IT SHOULD BE AS YOU LOOK AT THE TARGET'
MY TEST OF A RIFLE IS HOW WELL IT SHOOTS, RESTING ON A SUPPORT THAT ELIMINATES ANY OF THE TWITCHING OR BODY MOVEMENT OF THE RIFLEMAN.. SHOOTING IN THAT POSITION TELLS YOU THAT IS THE VERY BEST SHOOTING YOU ARE GOING TO GET OUT OF THAT RIFLE AND DANIEL BOONE HIMSELF COULDN'T DO BETTER. THAT;S WHERE I LOOK TO IMPROVE THE GROOUPS A RIFLE CAN GET BENCH REST BY ADJUSTING ALL THE VARIABLES THAT AFFECT ITS PERFORMANCE. BALL SIZE. POWDER CHARGE, PATCH ACTUAL THICKNESS WHEN EMPLOYED AND DEGREE OF LUBRICATION.
DUTCH SCHOULTZ

STANCE AND ALL THE FEATURES OF GOOD OFF HAND SHOOTING ARE IMPORTANT ONLY WHEN YOUR RIFLE SHOOTS WELL FROM A SUPPORT. THEN YOU KNOW THE ERRER ON TARGET WAS YOU AND NOT THE FAULT OF THE RIFLE.
DUTCH SCHOULTZ

 

[mushka]

I'm a master class shooter, and distinguished with the service rifle and the only way to succeed shooting standing is finding your correct position, and mucho mucho practice. Daily dry fire, live fire whenever possible . It doesn't matter what kind of rifle being used as it's all basically the same.
Half assed practice will only frustrate.

 

[Dr5x]

I'm a master class shooter, and distinguished with the service rifle and the only way to succeed shooting standing is finding your correct position, and mucho mucho practice. Daily dry fire, live fire whenever possible . It doesn't matter what kind of rifle being used as it's all basically the same.
Half assed practice will only frustrate.

I DON'T ARGUE WITH YOU. I BELIEVE YOU CAN SHOOT NEARLY AS WELL OFFHAND AS YOUR RIFLE WILL SHOOT FROM A BENCH REST.
WITH A MODERN RIFLE THERE AREN'T ALOTOF ADJUSTMENTS YOU CAN MAKE. CHANGING YOUR SOURCE OF AMMUNITION CAN HAVE SOME EFFECT.
A MUZZLELOADEROUT OF THE BOX WILL BE ALL OVER THE PLACE WITH VERY RARE EXCEPTIONS AND NEEDS TO BE ADJUST SO THAT IT WILL SHOOT AS DESIRED FROM A SUPPORT AND THEN THE OFFHAND SHOOTER CAN DO HIS BEST KNOWING ANY DEVIATION FROM THE DESIRED RESULT IS NOT THE RIFLE'S FAULT BUT HIS OWN.
I'VE SAID THIS MANY TIMES IT WILL BE FOREVER TRUE AS FAR AS I CAN SEE.
DUTCH

 

[Tom Compton]

Practice with a similarly-sighted spring-piston pellet rifle like a WeihrauchbHW35E has nearly supplanted dry-firing for me.

Spring-piston rather than pneumatics because of the recoil & lag/slow lock-time require impeccable follow-thru, like a flintlock.

If you are not shooting in formal competition, you don't best-grade (expensive) "match" pellets.
.177 Gamo Tomohawks shoot very well in my HW35, and the open sights(I replaced the "light-eliminating" globe front;-) are better for small game and pest like packrats trying to find a way into our cabin, as well as duplicating the sights on my ML.

I put an air gun scope on my springer (Winchester 435 same as Diana 35) to test pellets. Minsterklugen(sp?), Beeman and others. Daisy flat nose were as accurate as the high dollar stuff. A GREAT offhand training tool and can be used indoors, a great advantage on windy days.

 

[Dr5x]

I NEVER DID MUCH OFFhand shooting. My interest was making rifle's that shot loose groups bench rest into rifle's that shot tight groups bench rest so the rifleman had much more confidence in his gun when shooting off hand at targets or Bambi.
It seemed to me that the front sight didn't wander much up and down but shifted back and forth zipping passed the point of aim with increasing speed. The rifleman's job here is to anticipate when the front sight happens to be dead on as it goes by a the trigger was pulled.
To do welling this aiming process would require much practice to learn that rhythm which picks up speed so ideally he should fire as quickly as possible but "quickly" can cause it's own problems.
I need help on this and hope there is someone out there who can explain how they can successfully handle this problem of moving parts to achieve good results
Dutch

THE ODDEST RANGE EXPERIENCE.
To this day I still find this har to believe.
One early day I went out to my rather primitive range and found a good-looking young man in military clothing firing in a number of directions and he told me he was unable to get on the paper target set up at the 25 yard Pistol range.
Further conversation revealed that he was what are called an Instinct Shooter. His Army job was to travel from place to place giving demonstrations of his incredible ability of shooting and hitting bottle caps and other small items tossed into the air.
I am very weak on my recognition of modern guns produced after the M1 Garand but I think he was firing an AR 15.
By the simple process of watching where his bullets were hitting the dirt berm when he fired at the target and making the obvious adjustments I soon had him hitting the target in a not too impressive group.
He demonstrated his ability for me by nailing a few bottle caps to I tossed up.
He left the range but I was left wondering how this guy with his ability didn't;t know how to hit a paper target 25 yards away.
Dutch Schoultz

 

[Dr5x]

Each ball is weighed and rolled....

WHAT DO YOU MEAN "ROLLED?"
DUTCH

 

[Erwan]

Hi Dutch,
They weigh their balls and roll them with a special tool made by Pedersoli (on the picture it is a Pedersoli priced 189.00€) or other maker so that the balls are "perfectly round", they say...
I've never seen a profound difference between rolled and no rolled balls but the thing still costs almost $190.00...

​

 

[Dr5x]

Hi Dutch,
They weigh their balls and roll them with a special tool made by Pedersoli (on the picture it is a Pedersoli priced 189.00€) or other maker so that the balls are "perfectly round", they say...
I've never seen a profound difference between rolled and no rolled balls but the thing still costs almost $190.00...

​

NOW HERE WAS SOMETHING I WAS GOING TO WRITE ABOUT BUT FELT IT WAS TOO SILLY A TOPIC.
THE ONLY PEOPLE WHOCAN SHOOT ROUND BALLS ARE SMOOTHBORE SHOOTERS. THE SMOOTHBORE BALL DOES NOT GET EXTRUDED INTO THE RIFLING WHICH ENDS THE "ROUND BALL" SHAPE FOEVER.
A RIFLEMA TAKES HIS PERFECTLY ROUND BALL AND PLACES IT WITH PATCHING ON THE MUZZLE AND GIVES THIS COMBINATION A MIGHTY WHACK FORCING IT INTO THE RIFLING WHICH NOW HAS CUT GROOVES INTO THE SIDE OF THE BALL AND OTHERWISE TENDS TO STRAIGHTEN THE SIDES OF THE BALL AND FLATTENS THE "FACE" OF THE BALL THAT LOOKS OUT OF THE MUZZLE.. AFTER SEATING THE BALL INTO THE BREECH ON TOP OF THE POWDER CHARGE THE ONLY THING LEFT OF YOUR PERFECT ROUND NESS IS IN THE PART RESTING ON THE POWDER. THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE THAT PART RESTING ON THE POWDER WILL BE FLATTENED A BIT WHEN THE BLACK POWDER GOES OFF.

NNOW YOU TELL ME WHAT THE ADVANTAGE GOES WITH THE PERFECTLY ROUND BALL.

THIS QUESTION COMES UP ABOUT EVERY YEAR AND A HALF.

DUTCH

 

[longcruise]

I sometimes "roll" my balls that are cast with Lee molds. The sprues are minor flat spots and by putting a loose layer of balls in a vibrating case cleaner (without media) and running it for a few hours the balls are rounded.

I don't care about rounding them its done to eliminate the sprues little flat cut marks and makes Loading faster since there is no need to align for the sprue.