Open Top Colts - Hammer Touch

[Rich44]

I know how you guys poo-poo You Tube videos but I did watch a pretty good video a couple days ago that I think answers the OP's question, so I went back in history and link it here:

Assuming with me is not liked. While I was aware of this problem, the video is very well done. Probably one of the better ones made. Thanks for your input.

 

[45D]

I know how you guys poo-poo You Tube videos but I did watch a pretty good video a couple days ago that I think answers the OP's question, so I went back in history and link it here:

The poster seems very knowledgeable in his analysis and has very detailed shots of how the internal mechanism works. The hammer contact clearance issue is not the main point of the video but is integral to the discussion.

I don't have any problem with YouTube videos when they are "correct ". It's the "captain marvels" that show folks the WRONG way to set up action parts but tell you it's how Colt intended it to work . . .

Anyway, this guy is showing you RESET. Reset is the bolt arm "resetting" over the cam. Without reset, your revolver will be locked up. You'll notice near the end, he's listening for the "click" to happen as the hammer face breaks the plane of the recoil shield. (Wonder where we've heard that before !! )

As far as the last revolver he shows, the bolt isn't resetting because the cylinder ( which is removed) is the limiting factor for bolt travel . . . not the "stop shelf" forward of the bolt head. Some folks remove the shelf to insure maximum bolt head engagement. Nothing really wrong with that setup, you just have to remember to push the bolt down to "manually" reset before reinstalling the cyl.
Good video!!

Mike

 

[Rich44]

Anyway, this guy is showing you RESET. Reset is the bolt arm "resetting" over the cam. Without reset, your revolver will be locked up. You'll notice near the end, he's listening for the "click" to happen as the hammer face breaks the plane of the recoil shield. (Wonder where we've heard that before !! )

As far as the last revolver he shows, the bolt isn't resetting because the cylinder ( which is removed) is the limiting factor for bolt travel . . . not the "stop shelf" forward of the bolt head. Some folks remove the shelf to insure maximum bolt head engagement. Nothing really wrong with that setup, you just have to remember to push the bolt down to "manually" reset before reinstalling the cyl.
Good video!!

Well with clear explanations like that, this is what makes you the man.

Will check my hammer / nipple clearance without the bolt installed, as the bolt does interfere with the cylinder placement. And will be getting as much info as can and maybe think about just a kiss of a touch with the hammer. My caps seem to be hit very hard. Have a surface grinder and a extra hammer to work with. Would of said play with, but need to be careful using those words play and toy. Hope Dude gets back with how his fired caps look.

 

[Dude]

Thanks, Mike - I can think with that.

Rich - I've got a confession to make. I haven't fired any of mine yet. I got a few junker projects and learned how to make them right. Then I started 'fixing' the good ones. I keep reading, and listening to guys like Mike, and use my engineering skills to figure out forces involved and the way the machinery is supposed to operate. For such a simple mechanism, the complexity is in the details. The more I learn and know, the more of a genius Sam'l was.

One of these days soon I'll make it out to shoot these things. In the meantime I'll continue reading what Mike has to say and I just started Sixguns by Elmer. Sorry I don't have a data point for you, but I do get the idea you need to either shorten the nipples or the hammer. If the caps will fit by removing a little material from the nipples, that's the way I'd go since it's easier than removing material from the hammer. (lathes are such a great tool!) Also, it's smart altering the cheapest part. I believe the hammer is pretty hard so it would require stoning rather than filing. Perhaps square it up in the vise and run the stone along the jaws to keep it square, though it's probably not horribly important keeping it square.

It really does sound like fixing the interference issue will cure your cap problems.

 

[Rich44]

Rich - I've got a confession to make. I haven't fired any of mine yet.

Not sure if I understand what a unfired cap and ball revolver is. I take care of that matter right away.
Got to disagree on shorting the nipples if hammer impact needs to be lessened. Than anytime changing nipples, stock ones would not fit correctly. Yes I believe the hammer face needs to be ground flat. Have a small surface grinder that is perfect for that. Guess I will try and take some pictures where I am now and progress. Maybe document what happens a little bit. Yes 45D is a great knowledge base and help. Maybe you and I share some sameness, in that I like working on them probably more than shooting. Just our mechanics showing.

 

[Dude]

Yeah, I know - it's pretty weird having unfired pistols. Part of the problem is I have to go an hour and a half or two or more to anywhere I can shoot. And then I get nervous that I'd go all the way out there and be missing something, or something won't work right and it'd all be for nothing. I've recently found out that a friend (a half hour away) shoots at his place, so problem solved. But he's had issues this summer and we haven't gotten together. That should change soon.

I don't know what the normal dimension is for where the hammer/nipple junction should be. Perhaps those nipples on your gun are a bit longer than normal? Then again, perhaps the hammer face really does need dressing.

Mike, is there any 'normal' expected place for the hammer face to line up? Have you noticed a variation in nipple length or is it pretty standard?

 

[45D]

Yeah, I know - it's pretty weird having unfired pistols. Part of the problem is I have to go an hour and a half or two or more to anywhere I can shoot. And then I get nervous that I'd go all the way out there and be missing something, or something won't work right and it'd all be for nothing. I've recently found out that a friend (a half hour away) shoots at his place, so problem solved. But he's had issues this summer and we haven't gotten together. That should change soon.

I don't know what the normal dimension is for where the hammer/nipple junction should be. Perhaps those nipples on your gun are a bit longer than normal? Then again, perhaps the hammer face really does need dressing.

Mike, is there any 'normal' expected place for the hammer face to line up? Have you noticed a variation in nipple length or is it pretty standard?

Never really studied it but I'm sure there is a slight difference between brands and I know there's 2 different Slixshot lengths available for ROA's. The main thing is make sure the nipples are tight before you start "grinding" away !! Sux to fit everything up to loose nipples!!!

As far as going forward with setting up the hammer/nipple orientation, I'd definitely leave the nipples as a standard and do the adjusting on the hammer curve/face. Tolerances are much tighter on nipples than hammers and hammer screws / screw hole alignment . . . Dressing the hammer face to suit your particular revolver will be the best "standard".
Any time these revolvers are "corrected", it is an "across the board" correction for you and those that may own / possess it/ them in the future. I've never understood the reasoning behind not doing a "permanent" correction "in case I want to return it to its original state " ( original "broken" state?). Is that so somebody can go ahead and destroy (out of ignorance) something that someone else had taken care of before? Anyway, doing corrections on these now can give future "caretakers" a much nicer example than we started with!! ( their thoughts will be more like "HOLY COW!!!" what a nice running revolver!!)

Mike

 

[Pete453]

"in case I want to return it to its original state " ( original "broken" state?

I don't get this. We're playing with inexpensive repros, not originals. They're not very valuable to begin with and I look at them as good raw material to be tinkered with. You're spot on Mike, your tuned revolvers will hold their value much more so than a factory gun.

 

[M. De Land]

Not sure if I understand what a unfired cap and ball revolver is. I take care of that matter right away.
Got to disagree on shorting the nipples if hammer impact needs to be lessened. Than anytime changing nipples, stock ones would not fit correctly. Yes I believe the hammer face needs to be ground flat. Have a small surface grinder that is perfect for that. Guess I will try and take some pictures where I am now and progress. Maybe document what happens a little bit. Yes 45D is a great knowledge base and help. Maybe you and I share some sameness, in that I like working on them probably more than shooting. Just our mechanics showing.

Do it by hand an forget surface grinders with close tolerance work as you will always go to far before you realize it. I heard an axiom one time I whole hardheadedly agree with,
"There ain't nothing so messed up that a Dremel tool can't make worse", and to that I would add hand held surface grinders, for precise work.
Square the hammer face to the nipple then with a diamond file adjust both the nipple/cone height and cone taper to the caps you will use. Polish the nipples smooth so they will retain less fouling and ease cap seating. A properly adjusted main spring and hammer face will keep them in place until the cylinder is rotated for the next shot.
I chuck the nipples I'm using in a hand powered drill motor or small lathe I have for firing pin size work and diamond file both the length and profile of the cone taper until they fit the caps I want to use.
The hammer face should not be imprinted by cone impact but most are. The cap should absorb the full hammer energy to detonate the priming compound and yet leave the cap metal on the nipple to seal off the nipple orifice from back blast ideally.
(Open face guns should impact the hammer web over the arbor frame area and closed frame guns usually have shoulders either side of the hammer nose that butt up into frame seats.
Fit nipples to the squared and arrest adjusted hammer face not the other way around.
Battered nipples will stop once the adjustment is made.
I would make the hammer face adjustment to the shortest factory nipples that one would encounter as long nipples can always be shortened.
I believe one of the main reasons guns suck caps is because of ill adjusted hammer face to cone contact that imprints and distorts the hammer face and safety pin slot.

 

[Rich44]

M De Land - Sorry for your misunderstanding, did I not explain on a prior post that I am a Retired Journeyman Toolmaker. This is what a small surface grinder looks like. Thanks for your input.

 

[M. De Land]

M De Land - Sorry for your misunderstanding, did I not explain on a prior post that I am a Retired Journeyman Toolmaker. This is what a small surface grinder looks like. Thanks for your input.

View attachment 259384

My mistake, I thought you were referring to a hand grinder for weld reduction not a precision surface grinder. I use a tool post grinder in my large lathe for my small precision work, grinding reamer flutes etc.

 

[Rich44]

This first picture shows how it is possible to accurately measure if the hammer is touching the nipple. And how much over travel is found. The stocks are removed so it can be held in vise, and the bolt spring removed so the bolt will not interfere. Rubber band holds the cylinder back. Light push on the hammer brings it all the way forward. For this colt the hammer pushed the cylinder forward .014. Most information that has been found states the hammer should barely touch the nipple, if at all. Hope that is correct. So now is the time to correct.

My 1860 has been shot a lot and the hammer face shows the imprint of the nipple. This picture shows the imprint and it is .003 deep. There is no problem with caps being pulled off, but the caps are blown apart in more than one piece. They like to get tangled around the cone.

Using the small point on the indicator I was able to measure that depth and get the hammer held in the vise with the face as level as possible.

This picture shows a little better the set up using the small surface grinder. Indicator is on brass base so it can be slid on the magnet.

Since nipple length is involved, they were checked. No matter what set, they were all consistent in being the same in accuracy. The treso (ampco) nipples that are in use and the original nipples both measure .290 from base to top of nipple as shown. Have a new set of Slix Shot nipples and they measure .300 that is .010 longer.

Since the hammer was able to move the cylinder .014 forward with treso nipples installed and the endshake of the cylinder is .002-.003 my target is to remove .012 from the face of the hammer. So it will just barely touch the nipple. This will be a learning process on hammer relationship vs nipple so I'm glad a back up hammer was purchased many years ago. Also what stops the hammer from going any more forward is the web about in the center of the curve of the hammer touches the frame. Would also be easy to take a slight amount off if needed to get more impact back. Now in the next picture the guard is removed. Have 35 years experience on surface grinding and on rare occasions doing extremely small light grinding an experience tool maker may remove for visibility on small parts. Any other use the guard is in place always. And if you are not real experienced don't even think about it. Most will not have a grinder and while .012 is a lot it can be done by hand.

Well the hammer face has been ground and checked for proper fit and is just barely touching nipple, right on the money, maybe .001 - .002 clearance. I still need to radius the slot on the face slightly. Was just anxious to see how it fit and drop the hammer on a cap. While the spent caps stay now in one piece and look a lot better, I have that extra hammer that just might be used for another idea coming up.

I really like Pete453 response, without a project to work on I feel useless.

We're playing with inexpensive repros, not originals. They're not very valuable to begin with and I look at them as good raw material to be tinkered with.

 

[Pete453]

"There ain't nothing so messed up that a Dremel tool can't make worse",

Isn't that the truth!

Rich44, nice work! I know what you mean about having projects. I was out in the workshop tinkering as soon as my Dad told me what tools I could use and not use. Keeps my mind and hands healthy, but maybe not the wallet!

 

[necchi]

I really like Pete453 response, without a project to work on I feel useless.

Nice, Very Nice.
What is that 3 maybe 4hrs labor? Too measure and face a hammer?
So all this time when you've been asking how,, has been meant to just show us?
Thank's, Can you share your address/contact info and shop rates?

 

[M. De Land]

This first picture shows how it is possible to accurately measure if the hammer is touching the nipple. And how much over travel is found. The stocks are removed so it can be held in vise, and the bolt spring removed so the bolt will not interfere. Rubber band holds the cylinder back. Light push on the hammer brings it all the way forward. For this colt the hammer pushed the cylinder forward .014. Most information that has been found states the hammer should barely touch the nipple, if at all. Hope that is correct. So now is the time to correct.

View attachment 259698

My 1860 has been shot a lot and the hammer face shows the imprint of the nipple. This picture shows the imprint and it is .003 deep. There is no problem with caps being pulled off, but the caps are blown apart in more than one piece. They like to get tangled around the cone.

View attachment 259700

Using the small point on the indicator I was able to measure that depth and get the hammer held in the vise with the face as level as possible.

View attachment 259701

This picture shows a little better the set up using the small surface grinder. Indicator is on brass base so it can be slid on the magnet.

View attachment 259703

Since nipple length is involved, they were checked. No matter what set, they were all consistent in being the same in accuracy. The treso (ampco) nipples that are in use and the original nipples both measure .290 from base to top of nipple as shown. Have a new set of Slix Shot nipples and they measure .300 that is .010 longer.

View attachment 259704

Since the hammer was able to move the cylinder .014 forward with treso nipples installed and the endshake of the cylinder is .002-.003 my target is to remove .012 from the face of the hammer. So it will just barely touch the nipple. This will be a learning process on hammer relationship vs nipple so I'm glad a back up hammer was purchased many years ago. Also what stops the hammer from going any more forward is the web about in the center of the curve of the hammer touches the frame. Would also be easy to take a slight amount off if needed to get more impact back. Now in the next picture the guard is removed. Have 35 years experience on surface grinding and on rare occasions doing extremely small light grinding an experience tool maker may remove for visibility on small parts. Any other use the guard is in place always. And if you are not real experienced don't even think about it. Most will not have a grinder and while .012 is a lot it can be done by hand.

View attachment 259705

Well the hammer face has been ground and checked for proper fit and is just barely touching nipple, right on the money, maybe .001 - .002 clearance. I still need to radius the slot on the face slightly. Was just anxious to see how it fit and drop the hammer on a cap. While the spent caps stay now in one piece and look a lot better, I have that extra hammer that just might be used for another idea coming up.

I really like Pete453 response, without a project to work on I feel useless.

View attachment 259706

Looks great, is it 90 degrees to the nipple top face?
Have you located the mark in the hammer web where the forward movement is arrested against the frame over the arbor end. That may close up your hammer face clearance as it gets the full force of the hammer drop and swages out some. The hammer drop previously was partly arrested against the nipples.
Do you happen to know the thickness of the cap metal and the fulmate seated on the nipple ?

 

[French Colonial]

I wonder if he should try some shorter nipples?

 

[Rich44]

Thanks for the comments and questions,

Pete453 - Yep, that sounds like me. Bought my first lathe, 6" Craftsman, about 65 years ago. The tools have been bought over a long span of time and have given great payback. And yes someday another will get a good buy at the local auction.

Necchi - If you handed me a hammer and said you wanted .010 off the face I should be able to hand it back in an hour or less if you bought coffee. If needed to take the measurements than longer, but I work for enjoyment now.

M De Land - The imprint of the nipple was very even on the hammer face. So the hammer face was accepted as square with the nipple. So the indicator was used on the original face. But you bring out a good point, no use copying a mistake. The hammer contact on the frame seems to be right in line with the arbor. The caps that are being used are nearly the same. Winchester No. 11 Magnum and 1075's. Winchester are .165 height with the inside height of .125, they have a wall thickness of .007 Fit the Standard and Treso nipples fine and push on tight making the nipple seem .045 higher. After hammer impact they are flat with 3 splits, all connected. The 1075 caps are .157 high and are slightly tighter and add .055 to the height of nipple. Cylinder still spins free of cap interference. Same wall thickness and look the same after firing.

French Colonial - A little late now. But you are very correct in that just putting in shorter nipples would give the same results most likely. But then it would require those special length nipples all the time, and could you get them the right length? But some might think it is the easier way out.

 

[French Colonial]

It has been my experience (admittedly not a lot as I am primarily a flintlock shooter) that different nipples are longer or shorter depending on the brand, so you should be good as long as you do not try a different brand.

Good luck.

 

[ZUG]

M De Land - Sorry for your misunderstanding, did I not explain on a prior post that I am a Retired Journeyman Toolmaker. This is what a small surface grinder looks like. Thanks for your input.

View attachment 259384

That's just the cutest little surface grinder I've ever seen and it looks HEAVY too boot! You made a very nice stand for it - well done. Looks like an Atlas lathe in the background. Your shop is too clean.

 

[M. De Land]

Thanks for the comments and questions,

Pete453 - Yep, that sounds like me. Bought my first lathe, 6" Craftsman, about 65 years ago. The tools have been bought over a long span of time and have given great payback. And yes someday another will get a good buy at the local auction.

Necchi - If you handed me a hammer and said you wanted .010 off the face I should be able to hand it back in an hour or less if you bought coffee. If needed to take the measurements than longer, but I work for enjoyment now.

M De Land - The imprint of the nipple was very even on the hammer face. So the hammer face was accepted as square with the nipple. So the indicator was used on the original face. But you bring out a good point, no use copying a mistake. The hammer contact on the frame seems to be right in line with the arbor. The caps that are being used are nearly the same. Winchester No. 11 Magnum and 1075's. Winchester are .165 height with the inside height of .125, they have a wall thickness of .007 Fit the Standard and Treso nipples fine and push on tight making the nipple seem .045 higher. After hammer impact they are flat with 3 splits, all connected. The 1075 caps are .157 high and are slightly tighter and add .055 to the height of nipple. Cylinder still spins free of cap interference. Same wall thickness and look the same after firing.

French Colonial - A little late now. But you are very correct in that just putting in shorter nipples would give the same results most likely. But then it would require those special length nipples all the time, and could you get them the right length? But some might think it is the easier way out.

Thank you for measuring the thickness of the cap metal plus the priming compound seated on the nipple as that allows plenty of room for hammer face clearance. I had not previously made that measurement and had no idea the cap metal and priming compound used up that much space.
I'm going to make the measurement on some of my gun nipples pre and post ignition to see what is left of the thickness after firing. I would think fouling will subtend part of the pre ignition priming thickness.
Good information generated by this thread !