Jim, I read loud and clear, can't post pictures. But it would really help you cause to even show the builder where your dissatisfaction lays. I dont recall seeing his work, but there are many builders I have not heard of that builds fine guns. For the sake of all involveded and just my opinion a gentleman would have waited to talk to the builder first. Again JMHO.
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Ordered a rifle today.
- Thread starter JimG
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Just a suggestion...
Don't post who. Just answer inquiries from those seeking to have a build done.
Don't post who. Just answer inquiries from those seeking to have a build done.
galamb
58 Cal.
I'm not taking any sides here and none of us have seen the "finished product as shipped" but will make an observation.
Yes, it's always buyer beware and I like most of us here appreciate that money is difficult to come by.
However, when any builder out there can advertise a finished rifle for almost less than the cost of the parts - even if their track record has been decent - I still think you are rolling the dice.
Even a semi-custom rifle of a somewhat generic pattern should run you somewhat over a grand.
The cheapest I can build a rifle with "name brand" components is about 650 bucks, and that's buying a "plank" of wood to start with.
How anyone can crank one out for $750 (or less) and even cover their costs is beyond me.
Perhaps the builder has finally got tired of working for nothing and produced a product that he felt was in line with the price.
And yes, I understand 750 or 800 bucks is a lot of money, but it's still "not enough" for a semi-custom build.
Yes, it's always buyer beware and I like most of us here appreciate that money is difficult to come by.
However, when any builder out there can advertise a finished rifle for almost less than the cost of the parts - even if their track record has been decent - I still think you are rolling the dice.
Even a semi-custom rifle of a somewhat generic pattern should run you somewhat over a grand.
The cheapest I can build a rifle with "name brand" components is about 650 bucks, and that's buying a "plank" of wood to start with.
How anyone can crank one out for $750 (or less) and even cover their costs is beyond me.
Perhaps the builder has finally got tired of working for nothing and produced a product that he felt was in line with the price.
And yes, I understand 750 or 800 bucks is a lot of money, but it's still "not enough" for a semi-custom build.
You say that Mike does not "like" cap guns yet after building two of them for me as well as following at least a dozen of his builds, which are complete with pictures and lengthy explanations he never once indicated that he prefers flint over cap ignition. In fact the first rifle he made for me remains my most accurate muzzle loader and functioned perfectly right out of the box. You also fail to mention that Mike has a lifetime warranty that goes with every rifle he builds, so without pictures of what you say you received I find it extremely hard to believe that the rifle was unusable. Perhaps it was damaged in shipping and you assume that he sent it to you this way?
It should also be noted here that Mike recently stopped building muzzle loaders full time for several reasons, one of which was several customers who changed their minds constantly as to what they wanted, refused to research or take any advice as to what is or is not appropriate for that particular style and period of rifle and "expects him (Mike) to deliver what they(sic.) don't even know what they want."
You say that you'd rather cut/break the rifle up instead of sell it back to Mike? Even though he pays for postage and repairs or replaces,anything that breaks at his own expense? And you don't have pictures huh?
It should also be noted here that Mike recently stopped building muzzle loaders full time for several reasons, one of which was several customers who changed their minds constantly as to what they wanted, refused to research or take any advice as to what is or is not appropriate for that particular style and period of rifle and "expects him (Mike) to deliver what they(sic.) don't even know what they want."
You say that you'd rather cut/break the rifle up instead of sell it back to Mike? Even though he pays for postage and repairs or replaces,anything that breaks at his own expense? And you don't have pictures huh?
I would suggest that you get the Chambers Late Ketland lock put on the rifle.It is more correct for a trade rifle,and it is one heck of a good lock..
I NEVER said Lange does not like percussion cap rifles. Learn how to read. I said the local builder who looked at the rifle does not like 'cap' rifles! As for the pictures, I don't have a smart phone, I don't have a digital camera. I don't have any way to take the darn pictures let alone know how to post them. Once again, if any member of the forum lives near Fairmount in Vermilion County Illinois and wants to see the rifle, feel free to PM me. As for your allegations of "changing my mind" or generally bothering the builder, nothing could farther from the truth. As for his warranty, well warranties are only as good as the builder behind them. The crate he shipped the rifle in was 100% undamaged and the rifle was well packed. This was not shipping damage. I will say that the local builder did say I got exactly what I paid for. You want to defend Lange, go for it. It can't be just me as other forum members have PM'ed me and said that their Lange built rifles were shipped with similar, albeit not as bad, problems. As of this morning he still has not contacted me and further more I don't really care if he does. I learned my lesson the hard way but it won't be a lesson I'm likely to forget. Lesson learned- You cannot trust ANYONE to do a good job anymore.
< can be trusted to do a good job. However even my best attempts sometimes wont do so I don't try. If I could get the time and $$ to start building I believe I could put out some pretty impressive stuff after maybe 10-20 pieces similar to what you have!
There are some folks out there that can be trusted, however as days roll by they are fewer and further between. I suppose if I have a build done I would pay only a percentage of parts with the remainder paid upon inspection of finished product (meaning of course the trip charge to be added to the final cost!). Actually I suppose I will probably just buy a quality used gun.
Still hoping he come through for ya! Never give up on all cuz of one!
There are some folks out there that can be trusted, however as days roll by they are fewer and further between. I suppose if I have a build done I would pay only a percentage of parts with the remainder paid upon inspection of finished product (meaning of course the trip charge to be added to the final cost!). Actually I suppose I will probably just buy a quality used gun.
Still hoping he come through for ya! Never give up on all cuz of one!
Lange has contacted me. While I believe conversations of this type should remain private I will say that he has apologized and I accepted the mans apology. He made me an offer to make good on the rifle. I respectfully declined his offer for reasons of my own. I will get the rifle from the local builder who had offered to rebuild it this weekend and it will be destroyed. I don't really have the money to pay for a rebuild. I also don't want the rifle in this condition. I will NOT sell it to anyone as I cannot in good concience sell it in this condition for any amount. I don't have the skill needed to rebuild it myself. I have learned a lesson here. NEVER pay for anything sight unseen, EVER. NEVER trust anyone again when it involves money, for any reason, EVER. Trad muzzleloading is a rich mans game. I make roughly 30K a year. I cannot afford 1500 dollar rifles. I cannot justify it. $1500 is the baseline for a basic quality custom or so I've been told. Trad shooters often lament the diminishing numbers of traditional muzzeloader shooters. Well guess what, the rifles are no longer affordable to the vast majority of us. I also resent the innuendo that I'm lying about the rifle. PM me if you live ANYWHERE near me and I'll drive to a meeting place to show you the rifle. It will be a week or two before I cut it up. So if you want to see it let me know. Too bad Paul Vallandigham passed away. He lived near by and was a member of this forum. He would of been willing to report on the condition of the rifle in an unbiased manner. Why the heck would I make this up????!!!!! I'm the one out the money. I've accepted the fact that I threw the money away and this is something that will never happen again. I've accepted Langes apology and as far as I'm concerned this issue is closed. I will be selling everything related to trad muzzleloader shooting and moving on from this for good. I sold a good older muzzleloader to fund part of this. Now I've got nothing. PM me if you wish to see the rifle in person, otherwise I will not be replying to this thread as I consider this a closed subject.
longcruise
70 Cal.
Well, cutting it up and trashing it seems like a VERY counterproductive way to go.
you should be in a position to return the rifle for a full refund. If the builder refuses, you have a lock, barrel, trigger guard, butt plate and trigger assembly to resell to recover some of your money.
you should be in a position to return the rifle for a full refund. If the builder refuses, you have a lock, barrel, trigger guard, butt plate and trigger assembly to resell to recover some of your money.
Okay, builder has now contacted you, has apologiesed, you accepted, he made offer to make good on gun. In your ongoing hissy fit you decide to continue to pan the guy and cut up the gun rather than send it back to be fixed or for a refund.
I previously offered to post pictures for you. Now you say you don't have a cell phone or digital camera, and despite 99.8% of all people having them you don't know anyone who can take some pictures for you.
Sorry but at this stage I am calling BS too. Think it is time this thread got locked down. No builder deserves this typpe of unsubstantiated character assasination.
I previously offered to post pictures for you. Now you say you don't have a cell phone or digital camera, and despite 99.8% of all people having them you don't know anyone who can take some pictures for you.
Sorry but at this stage I am calling BS too. Think it is time this thread got locked down. No builder deserves this typpe of unsubstantiated character assasination.
I will pay shipping to my place and will cut it up for you and send you pictures of it cut up.
JimG said:
I won't call BS like Archie, but I just wonder
what happens when you buy something at the store, and it stops working within a couple weeks? Don't you take it back for a replacement Or something isn't right while still in warranty? Do you destroy it and buy a new one?
The man offered to make it right. And after all the banter above about hard earned money, yet you DECLINE (i.e. throw away money?)? :idunno:
You assign blame for your problems on the entire family of this avocation. :youcrazy:
I hate that you had these problems.
Your passing ship in the night is now out of sight. Peace.
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I don't like to see someone's reputation tarnished without a shred of proof. I don't know Mike Lange but have a friend that he is building a gun for right now.
The fact that the OP cannot produce a pic and wants to cut the gun into pieces makes no sense. If the OP is infact this broke he should salvage any money he can from this.
I wanted to know the builder but now I feel bad his name has been posted.
The fact that the OP cannot produce a pic and wants to cut the gun into pieces makes no sense. If the OP is infact this broke he should salvage any money he can from this.
I wanted to know the builder but now I feel bad his name has been posted.
Elkeater
45 Cal.
I am a small business owner. I hope I never have a customer as emotionally unstable as JimG.
jamesthomas
70 Cal.
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Dean2 said:
I call :bull: also and I second the motion on locking down this thread.
So, you are going to get out of muzzleloading?
OK. I'll be the first to say, muzzleloading isn't for everybody so I can understand that.
What I can't understand is your intention to destroy the rifle.
I can't see how doing this would make you feel better and I feel it is only taking a bad situation and making it worse.
There are more than a few of our members who would be happy to own it, complete with its faults.
They can't afford a custom or semi-custom rifle but they would be more than happy to pay you $400 or so for it.
Offering it to one of these people, with them knowing full well what its problems are would not be taking advantage of them. In fact it would very likely make their dream come true.
Once sold to someone who will appreciate it, even with its shortcomings will allow you to say,
"I got screwed when I bought a custom muzzleloading rifle but at least I can be pleased that it is owned by someone who can use it."
That to my thinking is taking a bad situation and making something good out of it that you can be proud of.
OK. I'll be the first to say, muzzleloading isn't for everybody so I can understand that.
What I can't understand is your intention to destroy the rifle.
I can't see how doing this would make you feel better and I feel it is only taking a bad situation and making it worse.
There are more than a few of our members who would be happy to own it, complete with its faults.
They can't afford a custom or semi-custom rifle but they would be more than happy to pay you $400 or so for it.
Offering it to one of these people, with them knowing full well what its problems are would not be taking advantage of them. In fact it would very likely make their dream come true.
Once sold to someone who will appreciate it, even with its shortcomings will allow you to say,
"I got screwed when I bought a custom muzzleloading rifle but at least I can be pleased that it is owned by someone who can use it."
That to my thinking is taking a bad situation and making something good out of it that you can be proud of.
Snakebite
45 Cal.
On the other side of the fence, maybe someone who has done business with Mike Lange could contact him and get his side of the story if he wished to give it. At least he would know that the problem was being discussed among potential customers and he might want to defend or give an explanation.
Just a thought.
And to be honest I really don't understand the rational to destroy the gun when he could get his money back.
Just a thought.
And to be honest I really don't understand the rational to destroy the gun when he could get his money back.
I don't mean this as personal as it may seem, as I don't know you, but that statement sounds rather irrational. Why you won't let the builder "make good" is puzzling.JimG said:
I'll remove your account, as you'll not be needing this forum any longer. I'm sorry things didn't work out better for you.JimG said:
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