Original Hawken question

[58viktor]

You are correct about percussion damage: This early style snail arrangement is not good, as the cap flashed all over the place, with resultant corrosion. Later Hawkens had this fault corrected, and it was improved again and again until the ultimate perfection found in Sam's last rifle. pg 18 Hawken Rifle The mountain man's choice by John D. Baird. Thank you for setting me straight.

 

[rich pierce]

You are correct about percussion damage: This early style snail arrangement is not good, as the cap flashed all over the place, with resultant corrosion. Later Hawkens had this fault corrected, and it was improved again and again until the ultimate perfection found in Sam's last rifle. pg 18 Hawken Rifle The mountain man's choice by John D. Baird. Thank you for setting me straight.

This is not a snail. It’s a drum and nipple arrangement.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

From page 9 , Hawken Rifles by John Baird

 

[rich pierce]

Baird knew much of what was known in 1980. But he had a fan boy side that doesn’t fit with a critical thinking research approach.

 

[58viktor]

This is not a snail. It’s a drum and nipple arrangement.

Thank you for your observation! Does that mean this rifle was converted from flint as I first thought? Just read this due your observation:

The drum system allows easy conversion of flintlocks to the percussion system simply by drilling and tapping the vent hole in the barrel to accept the drum, removing the firzzen and pan from the lock and changing the cock for a hammer. Many flintlocks were converted to percussion using this method. Nathaniel Wyeth noted in his journal that in December, 1834 they had converted 3 flintlock rifles to percussion because the condition of their powder was such that the flintlocks would not ignite it.

 

[rich pierce]

A great many cheap later percussion guns were made with the drum and nipple arrangement when new. This gun is a generic Midwest percussion halfstock from around 1840-1860.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The lock on @58viktor's rifle was always a percussion lock. There are no indications of a frizzen or frizzen spring.

I agree with @rich pierce.

 

[58viktor]

A great many cheap later percussion guns were made with the drum and nipple arrangement when new. This gun is a generic Midwest percussion halfstock from around 1840-1860.

With due respect I can assure you this not a late barrel. Also this rifle toe plate to butt-plate is riveted and fluxed also early. Nothing about this rifle says late. Every aspect of this rifle says hawken and not generic. Thanks for your opinion. Note also no cheek piece: Here is a picture of it's sister

 

[S.Kenton]

I’m afraid your rifle is a mass produced generic plains style rifle. I’ve seen many of these for sale at my local gun shows, albeit I’ve never seen one with the lock held in the manner that yours is. I agree with Rich is assessing that this is no Hawken, I doubt it’s even a distant relative of the Hawken rifle.
Hang on to it, display it and enjoy it..

 

[58viktor]

Note also on this verified Hawken also has a drum and nipple.

 

[58viktor]

I’m afraid your rifle is a mass produced generic plains style rifle. I’ve seen many of these for sale at my local gun shows, albeit I’ve never seen one with the lock held in the manner that yours is. I agree with Rich is assessing that this is no Hawken, I doubt it’s even a distant relative of the Hawken rifle.
Hang on to it, display it and enjoy it..

What generic is early as this rifle proves to be. Please point out one thing that says generic? Thank you

 

[S.Kenton]

The whole styling, it’s not definitive of any certain style, it never seems to have had a flintlock, It’s up to you to prove it’s a Hawken and so far I see no proof.

 

[58viktor]

Here's a few other pictures for maybe a closer look

 

[rich pierce]

Please show us the stamp or signature on the barrel.

 

[58viktor]

That would be to easy. This is a test

 

[SDSmlf]

Please show us the stamp or signature on the barrel.

I’m with @rich pierce on this one. As I asked on the other thread on this rifle, how about a closeup photograph of the Hawken signature or stamp on the barrel flats? Would put an end to the second guessing. It is an interesting gun.

 

[rich pierce]

Done. Not into these games.

 

[S.Kenton]

Done. Not into these games.

Same here...

 

[58viktor]

Thank you for your interest and it is interesting. That's why I wanted to share with your great forum. The fact that it is original condition with original ram rod... repaired buy a gun shop... not many of these survived. Most were used up and traded off, even to the Native Americans who were known to not take very good care of our rifles. I am the great, great grandson of Chief Col-lee. Let's see if someone who has read all the books comes aboard. Thanks again 58viktor

 

[SDSmlf]

Thank you for your interest and it is interesting. That's why I wanted to share with your great forum. The fact that it is original condition with original ram rod... repaired buy a gun shop... not many of these survived. Most were used up and traded off, even to the Native Americans who were known to not take very good care of our rifles. I am the great, great grandson of Chief Col-lee. Let's see if someone who has read all the books comes aboard. Thanks again 58viktor

Last attempt. Please post closeup photograph of the Hawken signature or stamp on the barrel flats. What is so difficult about that? Unless there is no Hawken signature or stamp to be found and photographed?