Original Remington Zouave loads

[RonK]

Several good suggestions already posted. I don't have a Zouave, but I do have and original 1861 Springfield and a Colt Special Model 1861, also original. Neither would group on a plate at 25 yards with the commonly available, all purpose .575 Minie. However, both are tack drivers with a .580 bullet. Patched balls are also very accurate, but point of impact is around 24" high above point of aim in my muskets at 50 yards, whereas using 510 gr. Minies, they hit about 5" high. I order my Minie bullets/balls from a fellow named Pat Kaboskey, aka the Civil War Bullet Man. A internet search should provide his information. He lubes them, and sizes them to whatever diameter you desire, and I have been very pleased with his bullets. I use the standard service charge of 60 grains of 3f, which is a finer granulation than originally loaded cartidges, but I get fine results.

Thanks for your info PastorB.

Best Ron

 

[RonK]

Your minie needs to be pure lead & nothing else. This is likely the root of your problem. Next, .575” is probably too small for your reproduction Zouave. In most, .580” is more appropriate. Yes, measuring will tell you for sure but upping your diameter a bit will certainly yield better results. I found best accuracy with mine at .580” pure lead 500 grain minie using 65 grains of Goex FFG. So much easier to load & more convenient than a patched ball. CW rifled muskets weren’t made for patched balls. Sure you can use them, you can also ice skate uphill but that doesn’t mean it makes sense to do it. The purpose of the minie is to provide the ease of loading of a smooth bore with the accuracy of a rifle & with much more energy on target than a patched ball. I’d bet you a dollar that if you tried a .578 or .580 pure lead minie & about 60 ish grains of powder, the rifle would surprise you. I found accuracy dropped considerably with powder charges over that as it damaged the projectile’s thin skirts on the base of the bullet. Normally the hardest part of shooting CW muskets is either finding a load that shoots to the sights or modifying the sights into regulation. Lodgewood makes a rear sight blank for the Zouave that you can file as needed to zero it with your load once you find one that is accurate.View attachment 163356

Hi Montana,

I have a original Zouave no repro. The minies are having a diameter from .5785
I didn’t use pure lead so I going to cast new ones with pure lead and go from there.
Thanks for your info.

Best,
Ron

 

[dave951]

Ron-

Ok full disclosure- I shoot competition with the North South Skirmish Association here in the US where we shoot Civil War era arms in competition for score, and that includes small arms all the way to field artillery. We don't tolerate inaccuracy and take the time to find what works. For my stable of competition muskets, I have 3 in regular rotation set up slightly differently depending on range conditions. I also have 5 Zouaves in my possession for use when working with youth black powder programs, and again, I won't tolerate a gun that is inaccurate. There are those on this board who can't get one to shoot accurately without resorting to patch round ball. I can only speculate that is because of a range of reasons.

Since you have an original, it should shoot very well. I haven't seen an original yet in good condition that wouldn't shoot well. Most problems that I've seen were with reproductions that were abused or from user error.

Getting one to shoot accurately is not rocket science. Pure lead minie sized and designed correctly, moderate charges of real black powder, quality caps, quality lube and the system simply works. There is no need to pound the bullet down the bore with the ramrod. All that does is deform the bullet and ruin aerodynamics. If you're having to do that, there is a problem elsewhere with your load components. Not all minies are designed the same and pure lead is mandatory. Casting technique can lead to poor bullets and poor accuracy. Black powder subs can lead to issues with ignition and fouling problems. Cheap "all purpose" reenactor caps make for ignition problems. But what would I know about this-

 

[RonK]

Ron-

Ok full disclosure- I shoot competition with the North South Skirmish Association here in the US where we shoot Civil War era arms in competition for score, and that includes small arms all the way to field artillery. We don't tolerate inaccuracy and take the time to find what works. For my stable of competition muskets, I have 3 in regular rotation set up slightly differently depending on range conditions. I also have 5 Zouaves in my possession for use when working with youth black powder programs, and again, I won't tolerate a gun that is inaccurate. There are those on this board who can't get one to shoot accurately without resorting to patch round ball. I can only speculate that is because of a range of reasons.

Since you have an original, it should shoot very well. I haven't seen an original yet in good condition that wouldn't shoot well. Most problems that I've seen were with reproductions that were abused or from user error.

Getting one to shoot accurately is not rocket science. Pure lead minie sized and designed correctly, moderate charges of real black powder, quality caps, quality lube and the system simply works. There is no need to pound the bullet down the bore with the ramrod. All that does is deform the bullet and ruin aerodynamics. If you're having to do that, there is a problem elsewhere with your load components. Not all minies are designed the same and pure lead is mandatory. Casting technique can lead to poor bullets and poor accuracy. Black powder subs can lead to issues with ignition and fouling problems. Cheap "all purpose" reenactor caps make for ignition problems. But what would I know about this-

View attachment 163382

View attachment 163383

View attachment 163384

Dave,
Thank you very much for all your info.
I have two original Remington Zouaves which are in excellent plus shape and perfect bores. At the moment I am casting pure lead minies RCBS 500 grains. I use Swiss 2FF at the moment. I going out shooting on Saturday. I come back here with the results. Really good shooting what I see at the pictures. Maybe try some of the loads you wrote on the targets.

Best,

Ron

 

[Blaze]

Very interesting, and informative reading. As a Zoli Zouave shooter myself I can relate to the varied experiences with it. Ive had my Zouave since I was 16 yrs old, I'm 66 now. Very educational, informative read, but I've never reached the accuracy displayed by Dave951. Great shooting, alot of time and dedication spent on achieving that kind of accuracy. Awesome!

 

[dave951]

Dave,
Thank you very much for all your info.
I have two original Remington Zouaves which are in excellent plus shape and perfect bores. At the moment I am casting pure lead minies RCBS 500 grains. I use Swiss 2FF at the moment. I going out shooting on Saturday. I come back here with the results. Really good shooting what I see at the pictures. Maybe try some of the loads you wrote on the targets.

Best,

Ron

One RCBS design that is a known good bullet is the Hogdon. If you use the standard RCBS Hogdon with the short base plug, powder charges need to be in the 48-50gr range with 3f Swiss. With the taller base plug, the bullet weighs a bit less but it also requires only about 40-45g 3f for equal results. One variable that many with these guns never think to try is going to 3f. It won't hurt the gun, just cut the charge levels back a bit. 3f has a quicker pressure rise than 2f meaning the skirt is expanding before the bullet starts to move from inertia. 2f has a lower pressure curve and the skirts expand less rapidly but to combat this, you'll need a heavier bullet. 3f also has less fouling than 2f.

One other word on casting minies- don't get fooled by thinking they cast like standard round ball. Like with any heavy bullet, you have to cast hot and pour fast. I run my pot for minies at 850F+ and pour fast. The base plug has to be hot or you will get voids and poor skirt fillout. After casting weigh the minies and segregate by 1g increments. You'll find a "Bell Curve" distribution of the weights. Keep those in the largest category, toss all others back into the lead pot. They probably have some internal defect that will ruin accuracy or cause odd flyers.

The minie was designed as a system to operate within a range of balanced parameters. Stray outside and the laws of physics don't bend, accuracy will suffer. Original "Zouaves" (aka 1863 Remington Contract) are known good shooting rifles if you get the ammo right.

 

[RonK]

One RCBS design that is a known good bullet is the Hogdon. If you use the standard RCBS Hogdon with the short base plug, powder charges need to be in the 48-50gr range with 3f Swiss. With the taller base plug, the bullet weighs a bit less but it also requires only about 40-45g 3f for equal results. One variable that many with these guns never think to try is going to 3f. It won't hurt the gun, just cut the charge levels back a bit. 3f has a quicker pressure rise than 2f meaning the skirt is expanding before the bullet starts to move from inertia. 2f has a lower pressure curve and the skirts expand less rapidly but to combat this, you'll need a heavier bullet. 3f also has less fouling than 2f.

One other word on casting minies- don't get fooled by thinking they cast like standard round ball. Like with any heavy bullet, you have to cast hot and pour fast. I run my pot for minies at 850F+ and pour fast. The base plug has to be hot or you will get voids and poor skirt fillout. After casting weigh the minies and segregate by 1g increments. You'll find a "Bell Curve" distribution of the weights. Keep those in the largest category, toss all others back into the lead pot. They probably have some internal defect that will ruin accuracy or cause odd flyers.

The minie was designed as a system to operate within a range of balanced parameters. Stray outside and the laws of physics don't bend, accuracy will suffer. Original "Zouaves" (aka 1863 Remington Contract) are known good shooting rifles if you get the ammo right.

Dave that’s a good tip regarding the molds. I never knew that RCBS had different types minies. I am living in the Netherlands so it’s not easy to find the correct tools. I shall try to order one of these RCBS Hogdon molds.
With casting I noticed the flaws which you described I thought that my lead was to hot. I shall buy an temp gauge to get this under control.
The 3F Swiss I ordered so I will try that also.
Thanks!

Ron

This the RCBS mold which I use now

 

[SmokepoleSam]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, if it has I apologize, when you use pure lead the bullet comes out a little smaller and heavier from the same mold.

 

[RonK]

Thanks Sam
I made about 60 minies today and I measured about 10 minies all were .579 / .580 so they came out quite well. Didn’t had te time to weigh them.

Best,

Ron

 

[SmokepoleSam]

Thanks for the reply with the .579/580 Dia you should be good to go. Good shooting and let us know how it works out.

 

[RonK]

Thanks for the reply with the .579/580 Dia you should be good to go. Good shooting and let us know how it works out.

I will for sure

 

[dave951]

Ron-

Here's a bullet that shoots rather well and it's called the "Trashcan" on the right. On the left- Lyman 575213, middle is Rapine 500

Check out this from Lodgewood's bullet page-

 

[RonK]

Dave that is a lot of choice. I saved the lodgewood site and have a look at it tomorrow.
I have the Lyman 575213 mold here bought it a week ago. Didn’t made these yet.
I like the shape of it, guess that this one fits betters in the tulip ramrod.

Does the Rapine perform well too?

Ron

 

[dave951]

Dave that is a lot of choice. I saved the lodgewood site and have a look at it tomorrow.
I have the Lyman 575213 mold here bought it a week ago. Didn’t made these yet.
I like the shape of it, guess that this one fits betters in the tulip ramrod.

Does the Rapine perform well too?

Ron

In my guns, the Rapine "Trashcan" is an extremely accurate bullet but it is sensitive to what lube you use and sadly, not in production any more since Rapine passed away. Moose Moulds has picked up that design and others and makes minie molds of very high quality. I wouldn't hesitate to use a Moose mould. The Rapine 500 has been a disappointment in every gun I've tried it in to date.

https://moosemoulds.com/products/
A very close second to the Trashcan is the RCBS Hogdon. It is not as sensitive as the Trashcan to lube and shoots quite well in every gun I've shot it in and Moose makes a version of it as well. I have both moulds, RCBS and Moose, and there's no difference between them in terms of rifle performance. I get quality bullets from both molds when up to operating temperature. If you look at the group descriptions in the pix I posts, you'll see 2 of them are with the RCBS Hogdon and one is the Rapine Trashcan.

Of the Lyman 575213 and RCBS 500, and I have both, neither delivers what I'd term acceptable accuracy, but I'm very picky. Some folks get good results, but I haven't found the right combination for my guns yet.

One further comment on moulds. There are those who are tempted by the price of Lee moulds but I've found that their minie moulds are uniformly dubious as to durability and quality. That said, I currently have two of their version of the Trashcan which they have discontinued. Both cast at .575, I have bought 3 of them in total, but one is already useless as the core pin plug is mounted on a flimsy piece of sheet metal that warps easily and leads to galling in the mould which has rendered that mould useless. I keep the remaining two moulds for only one of my guns which takes a 575. At the point where another one fails, I'll go with Moose on the replacement. For what I paid for the 3, adding in the frustration, I would have been better off with Moose from the start on this one. Lee has other designs and I've tried them but none delivers what I term as acceptable performance either in the casting process or at the range. I've found Lee minie moulds to be an exercise in frustration and I simply won't use or recommend them to anyone. With that in mind, I strongly recommend anyone trying to get accuracy out of their minie rifles to go to Lodgewood for a sampler of bullets. Try them before purchasing a quality mould and sizing die. It's a great way to save money in the long run.

So why purchase minies from Lodgewood? Simple- the guy casting for them is a N-SSA member and competitor with Civil War arms. He knows how to make a quality minie bullet and doesn't scrimp. Other commercial sources can't make the same claim and I've seen the results and it's often disappointing. Track, Log Cabin, etc, they're great for patch round ball, but there is only one source for quality minies for testing and it's Lodgewood.

Like I said before, there is no rocket science or secrets to getting a minie to shoot quite well. All you have to do is listen and do what we've done. We're not hiding anything. One further comment on this line, and this is coming from a competition shooter, any discussion on accuracy will always include group size and that's why I post pix of some groups I've shot with minies. Group measurement is the gold standard by which we gauge how effective we are with a load/rifle combination. I often hear- "I can hit a 12in gong at 100yd" or "I can kill a deer". Both mean nothing in competition and neither is a reliable method to measure success with your rifle and load in the search for what's best. MOA or Figure of Merit are the standard to use.

 

[gustrolland]

Dear All,
Need some help with a proper load or bulllet for a Original Remington Zouave.
I use at the moment the RCBS .575 500 grain Minies with 70 grain Swiss 3 (FF). If I going down in charge (50 or 60 grains) it will not hit the target. I’ve read in other topics here that they use 45 grains and have good results. So what I do wrong?

Best,

Ron

Proper load was 70 grains, but if you get hold of an older Lyman black powder manual you will see a picture of what happens to a standard mini. A older compaction shooter showed me his mould blocks with the base plug turned down. I can shoot this round with 100 grains with VERY good accuracy, but I still like only using 70 grains even if hunting. Use the same load in a flinter built by Steven Hughes.

 

[longtoothpard]

Ron-

Ok full disclosure- I shoot competition with the North South Skirmish Association here in the US where we shoot Civil War era arms in competition for score, and that includes small arms all the way to field artillery. We don't tolerate inaccuracy and take the time to find what works. For my stable of competition muskets, I have 3 in regular rotation set up slightly differently depending on range conditions. I also have 5 Zouaves in my possession for use when working with youth black powder programs, and again, I won't tolerate a gun that is inaccurate. There are those on this board who can't get one to shoot accurately without resorting to patch round ball. I can only speculate that is because of a range of reasons.

Since you have an original, it should shoot very well. I haven't seen an original yet in good condition that wouldn't shoot well. Most problems that I've seen were with reproductions that were abused or from user error.

Getting one to shoot accurately is not rocket science. Pure lead minie sized and designed correctly, moderate charges of real black powder, quality caps, quality lube and the system simply works. There is no need to pound the bullet down the bore with the ramrod. All that does is deform the bullet and ruin aerodynamics. If you're having to do that, there is a problem elsewhere with your load components. Not all minies are designed the same and pure lead is mandatory. Casting technique can lead to poor bullets and poor accuracy. Black powder subs can lead to issues with ignition and fouling problems. Cheap "all purpose" reenactor caps make for ignition problems. But what would I know about this-

View attachment 163382

View attachment 163383

View attachment 163384

What region and team are you with, Dave? I was Midwest Region, Rockbridge Artillery when I was NSSA years ago. I shot a Zoli Zouave with the ashcan mould.

 

[RonK]

In my guns, the Rapine "Trashcan" is an extremely accurate bullet but it is sensitive to what lube you use and sadly, not in production any more since Rapine passed away. Moose Moulds has picked up that design and others and makes minie molds of very high quality. I wouldn't hesitate to use a Moose mould. The Rapine 500 has been a disappointment in every gun I've tried it in to date.

https://moosemoulds.com/products/
A very close second to the Trashcan is the RCBS Hogdon. It is not as sensitive as the Trashcan to lube and shoots quite well in every gun I've shot it in and Moose makes a version of it as well. I have both moulds, RCBS and Moose, and there's no difference between them in terms of rifle performance. I get quality bullets from both molds when up to operating temperature. If you look at the group descriptions in the pix I posts, you'll see 2 of them are with the RCBS Hogdon and one is the Rapine Trashcan.

Of the Lyman 575213 and RCBS 500, and I have both, neither delivers what I'd term acceptable accuracy, but I'm very picky. Some folks get good results, but I haven't found the right combination for my guns yet.

One further comment on moulds. There are those who are tempted by the price of Lee moulds but I've found that their minie moulds are uniformly dubious as to durability and quality. That said, I currently have two of their version of the Trashcan which they have discontinued. Both cast at .575, I have bought 3 of them in total, but one is already useless as the core pin plug is mounted on a flimsy piece of sheet metal that warps easily and leads to galling in the mould which has rendered that mould useless. I keep the remaining two moulds for only one of my guns which takes a 575. At the point where another one fails, I'll go with Moose on the replacement. For what I paid for the 3, adding in the frustration, I would have been better off with Moose from the start on this one. Lee has other designs and I've tried them but none delivers what I term as acceptable performance either in the casting process or at the range. I've found Lee minie moulds to be an exercise in frustration and I simply won't use or recommend them to anyone. With that in mind, I strongly recommend anyone trying to get accuracy out of their minie rifles to go to Lodgewood for a sampler of bullets. Try them before purchasing a quality mould and sizing die. It's a great way to save money in the long run.

So why purchase minies from Lodgewood? Simple- the guy casting for them is a N-SSA member and competitor with Civil War arms. He knows how to make a quality minie bullet and doesn't scrimp. Other commercial sources can't make the same claim and I've seen the results and it's often disappointing. Track, Log Cabin, etc, they're great for patch round ball, but there is only one source for quality minies for testing and it's Lodgewood.

Like I said before, there is no rocket science or secrets to getting a minie to shoot quite well. All you have to do is listen and do what we've done. We're not hiding anything. One further comment on this line, and this is coming from a competition shooter, any discussion on accuracy will always include group size and that's why I post pix of some groups I've shot with minies. Group measurement is the gold standard by which we gauge how effective we are with a load/rifle combination. I often hear- "I can hit a 12in gong at 100yd" or "I can kill a deer". Both mean nothing in competition and neither is a reliable method to measure success with your rifle and load in the search for what's best. MOA or Figure of Merit are the standard to use.

Dave that’s a lot of info. I totally agree with the Lee molds they are not so good. I use for my breechloading rifles always Lyman or RCBS. I shall contact Lodgewood if they ship to the Netherlands.

One question regarding the lube which you recommended in earlier answer.
Is it a softer type of lube or hard lube?

Thanks

Ron

 

[dave951]

What region and team are you with, Dave? I was Midwest Region, Rockbridge Artillery when I was NSSA years ago. I shot a Zoli Zouave with the ashcan mould.

Palmetto Sharpshooters, Carolinas Region.

 

[dave951]

Dave that’s a lot of info. I totally agree with the Lee molds they are not so good. I use for my breechloading rifles always Lyman or RCBS. I shall contact Lodgewood if they ship to the Netherlands.

One question regarding the lube which you recommended in earlier answer.
Is it a softer type of lube or hard lube?

Thanks

Ron

Lube is a very deep rabbit hole. For the Trashcan, the best I've found so far is a commercial one called "Len's Lube" and it's sold at the range during our Nationals competition. It works great on the Trashcan and not as well on others. I did some deep diving on lubes a couple years ago and when I started out in muzzleloading 40yr back, Crisco was the thing. A number of years ago, the formula on Crisco was changed to cut back on triglycerides that clogged arteries and while a good thing healthwise, it was harmful to black powder accuracy. It wasn't much but it was noticeable. So I started to look at other stuff. So far, the best I've found and verified through head to head testing holding all variables constant other than lube, is plain lard mixed with beeswax. and a touch of lanolin. Some others were pretty much equal but I settled on lard because it's readily available at nearly every grocery. Lanolin is available at almost every pharmacy and on Amazon. It's expensive, but you only need about a teaspoon per pound of beeswax/lard. Proportions of wax to lard vary depending on the season. In hotter weather like we have in the southern US, I go about 60/40. In winter, it's about 50/50. This is one area where I suggest you experiment to find if anything else available to you works better. How you lube is also relevant. Some fill the base but I've found that's a shortcut to multiple odd flyers. Best method I've found is dip lubing the rings only on bullets like the 575213 but on the Hogdon, it's the bottom "large" ring ONLY. One other interesting thing with the Hogdon, it's the bullet I use when working with Scouts and kids in muzzleloading instruction. With the lube and method I've outlined, we've run the "Zouave" muskets we use with the kids for up to 60 shots straight with no wiping or loss of accuracy. Get the lube and powder charge in balance and it's a wonderful thing.

The key to getting the most out of these guns is methodical, boring, testing and recording the results. That's why I have a bunch of target pix and all with relevant data written on them. Change only one variable at the time, repeat the experiment process, record, and be consistent.

 

[RonK]

Lube is a very deep rabbit hole. For the Trashcan, the best I've found so far is a commercial one called "Len's Lube" and it's sold at the range during our Nationals competition. It works great on the Trashcan and not as well on others. I did some deep diving on lubes a couple years ago and when I started out in muzzleloading 40yr back, Crisco was the thing. A number of years ago, the formula on Crisco was changed to cut back on triglycerides that clogged arteries and while a good thing healthwise, it was harmful to black powder accuracy. It wasn't much but it was noticeable. So I started to look at other stuff. So far, the best I've found and verified through head to head testing holding all variables constant other than lube, is plain lard mixed with beeswax. and a touch of lanolin. Some others were pretty much equal but I settled on lard because it's readily available at nearly every grocery. Lanolin is available at almost every pharmacy and on Amazon. It's expensive, but you only need about a teaspoon per pound of beeswax/lard. Proportions of wax to lard vary depending on the season. In hotter weather like we have in the southern US, I go about 60/40. In winter, it's about 50/50. This is one area where I suggest you experiment to find if anything else available to you works better. How you lube is also relevant. Some fill the base but I've found that's a shortcut to multiple odd flyers. Best method I've found is dip lubing the rings only on bullets like the 575213 but on the Hogdon, it's the bottom "large" ring ONLY. One other interesting thing with the Hogdon, it's the bullet I use when working with Scouts and kids in muzzleloading instruction. With the lube and method I've outlined, we've run the "Zouave" muskets we use with the kids for up to 60 shots straight with no wiping or loss of accuracy. Get the lube and powder charge in balance and it's a wonderful thing.

The key to getting the most out of these guns is methodical, boring, testing and recording the results. That's why I have a bunch of target pix and all with relevant data written on them. Change only one variable at the time, repeat the experiment process, record, and be consistent.

I made some lube with the ingredients you named. Dipped 20 minies in it and size them .580 so Saturday I will go out to the shooting club.

Cheers,

Ron