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Ottoman Guns

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I have found a particularly strange Ottoman gun:
Ottoman Petronel.jpg

SKD | Online Collection
It looks like an Ottoman blunderbuss petronel, which besides being incredibly cool, is not something I have ever seen. I am very limited in my knowledge of Ottoman arms, so I was wondering if someone else had some insight.
 
I have found a particularly strange Ottoman gun:
View attachment 214499
SKD | Online Collection
It looks like an Ottoman blunderbuss petronel, which besides being incredibly cool, is not something I have ever seen. I am very limited in my knowledge of Ottoman arms, so I was wondering if someone else had some insight.
This sort of long arm stock is called a Cibuklija (meaning pipelike, after tobacco pipes), to my knowledge; a type of stock from the Ottoman Balkans, which likely originated in Italy before crossing the Adriatic. The style can be seen in 17th and 18th century Ottoman Balkan firearms (almost all the examples that come to my mind are in museums). I suspect that the hyper slender Arnautka/Tancika sort of stock originated from the Cibuklija. The style seems to have stuck around for the highly decorated Dzeferdar rifles.

Of course, all my knowledge regarding the matter comes from an article by Robert Elgood, who likely has much more to say on the matter in his works.
 
This sort of long arm stock is called a Cibuklija (meaning pipelike, after tobacco pipes), to my knowledge; a type of stock from the Ottoman Balkans, which likely originated in Italy before crossing the Adriatic. The style can be seen in 17th and 18th century Ottoman Balkan firearms (almost all the examples that come to my mind are in museums). I suspect that the hyper slender Arnautka/Tancika sort of stock originated from the Cibuklija. The style seems to have stuck around for the highly decorated Dzeferdar rifles.

Of course, all my knowledge regarding the matter comes from an article by Robert Elgood, who likely has much more to say on the matter in his works.
The buttstock looks a lot like an Italian carbine stock, so that would make sense for the origin of the style.
Wheellock muzzle-loading sporting gun - By Lazarino Cominazzo_ (about 1635).jpg

lot.jpg
 
I agree with Barud in that it is a Čibuklija (pronounced chi-book-lee-ya)
Very nice example with 17th century Ottoman style decoration, a vent pick holder, and a long blunderbus barrel!

Here is another example
Cibuklija-tufek.jpg

A period photo
bosnianPuškaČibuklija.jpg

Top is an Italian rifle from which they based and bottom is another Čibuklija
1683.jpg


One sold in California this year
cibuklija.jpg
 
I agree with Barud in that it is a Čibuklija (pronounced chi-book-lee-ya)
Very nice example with 17th century Ottoman style decoration, a vent pick holder, and a long blunderbus barrel!

Here is another example
View attachment 214600
A period photo
View attachment 214601
Top is an Italian rifle from which they based and bottom is another Čibuklija
View attachment 214603

One sold in California this year
View attachment 214607
Thank you for the additional photos. The rack of guns is particularly helpful!
 
Hi John: Your post #281. WOW!!! What a beauty. Wish that was in my collection. LOL. Note it includes the much utilized Balkan style lock. Looks to be in wonderful condition.

Much agree with others on the origin of the butt stock style. It likely evolved from the Italian wheellock period. I usually refer to this as Dzeferdar due to it's long popularity in the Balkans and just out of habit for my own identification.

Hi Cyten: That last photo in your post #284. A very solid looking plain example of a Dzeferdar with an Ottoma/Turkish lock that probably sold for a high price. Another one I wish I owned. LOL If you've ever handled one of these guns, it's amazing how light weight they are. 6-7-lbs.

Rick
 
Hi John: Your post #281. WOW!!! What a beauty. Wish that was in my collection. LOL. Note it includes the much utilized Balkan style lock. Looks to be in wonderful condition.
Its in the Dresden armory. If you want to go "borrow" it, make sure to grab some of their wheellock puffers, for me.
 
...I usually refer to this as Dzeferdar due to it's long popularity in the Balkans and just out of habit for my own identification.

Hi Cyten: That last photo in your post #284. A very solid looking plain example of a Dzeferdar with an Ottoma/Turkish lock that probably sold for a high price...

Dzeferdar are after all, just Čibuklija with all that mother of pearl decoration. Dzeferdar is derived from the Arabic and Persian word for bejeweled (or something along those lines)
That Čibuklija sold for $1200 at a shop that is near to my home town in California, thought of picking it up last time I was there for the holidays, but decided to hold off.
 
Dzeferdar are after all, just Čibuklija with all that mother of pearl decoration. Dzeferdar is derived from the Arabic and Persian word for bejeweled (or something along those lines)
That Čibuklija sold for $1200 at a shop that is near to my home town in California, thought of picking it up last time I was there for the holidays, but decided to hold off.
Thanks for the info. That was a very reasonable price for that gun, assuming it's good condition.

Rick
 
Hi Isaac. Welcome to the Forum. A very good and interesting question you pose. Let me put some more thought into this.

Rick
It would seem that there was not much direct export of (military style) European guns to the various regions till closer to the end of the Ottoman Empire. Especially during the years you posted interest in. The few remaining specimens with appropriate marks on their lock plates or stocks would indeed indicate government ownership at some point. Another problem is that the Ottoman Empire kept very little written records of their gun building, testing, usage, etc. Unlike Europe with it's large arsenals, most of the guns from this period were assembled in small shops scattered across much of the Empire. They had their own style of guns they preferred, which were essentially the same as civilian guns. In fact, they continued the use of the flintlock all the way through the 3rd quarter of the 19th century. Which is the likely reason so many examples still exist today. These small shops must have numbered in the hundreds. Even entire towns and villages were devoted to arms making. Often under contract to the Ottoman Empire. But it is well known that large numbers of locks and barrels were exported from Europe for sale/trade to all of these regions for local assembly and stocked and decorated to local tastes.

Rick
 
It would seem that there was not much direct export of (military style) European guns to the various regions till closer to the end of the Ottoman Empire. Especially during the years you posted interest in. The few remaining specimens with appropriate marks on their lock plates or stocks would indeed indicate government ownership at some point. Another problem is that the Ottoman Empire kept very little written records of their gun building, testing, usage, etc. Unlike Europe with it's large arsenals, most of the guns from this period were assembled in small shops scattered across much of the Empire. They had their own style of guns they preferred, which were essentially the same as civilian guns. In fact, they continued the use of the flintlock all the way through the 3rd quarter of the 19th century. Which is the likely reason so many examples still exist today. These small shops must have numbered in the hundreds. Even entire towns and villages were devoted to arms making. Often under contract to the Ottoman Empire. But it is well known that large numbers of locks and barrels were exported from Europe for sale/trade to all of these regions for local assembly and stocked and decorated to local tastes.

Rick
Some of this is only partially true. The Ottomans have fantastic records, much of them are just not yet published very well, or in languages besides Turkish. The Prime Minister's Archives/Başbakanlık Osmanlı Arşivleri (BOA) have a lot of detailed information of the couple attempts at building musket factories under Selim III, Mahmud II, and then some of the more successfull (but short lived) factories that produced percussion muskets under Abdulmejid I.

As for the craft industry, that seems to be far more well published on. Elgood's books and some others cover the private trade pretty well.
 
Hi Isaac

Thanks for your response. I used the word "seemed" since I really do not know the answer. And, as you mention, there is likely more written records that have simply not been translated or otherwise published much beyond the Turkish border. The Ottoman Empire certainly had the power and wealth to create arms making arsenals similar to Europe. But, as you mention, these attempts appear short-lived for whatever reasons. The only similar guns (2 or 3) I've seen were actual European muskets that additional marks/stamps showing Turkish government ownership at some point. But collectors have generally considered these guns as captured arms after battles. As you mention, obviously there were arsenals built during this time period. I have just not seen any muskets myself. So any information you have would be much better than mine. LOL Best of luck on your research. If you have any photos of these guns, please post. Would be of much interest to many of us.

Rick
 
In the Pitt Rivers museum. A half stock. I wonder if it was repaired from a damaged fore stock or made that way originally.
 

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Cyten, would you be able to translate the maker & year on this Algerian lock?
Great thread. Lived in Turkey for a while and unfortunately did not aquire many of these unique pieces. My manager had better examples of items his family had collected for generations than the Topkapi Palace Museum! The collection was purchased from him by the government and he was allowed to retain most of it until he passed. I would drink out of a silver cup, made for the Sultan, that had a articulated silver fish that would swim when you drank from it.


Thanks, William
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G103952_2.jpg
 
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Cyten, would you be able to translate the maker & year on this Algerian lock?
Great thread. Lived in Turkey for a while and unfortunately did not aquire many of these unique pieces. My manager had better examples of items his family had collected for generations than the Topkapi Palace Museum! The collection was purchased from him by the government and he was allowed to retain most of it until he passed. I would drink out of a silver cup, made for the Sultan, that had a articulated silver fish that would swim when you drank from it.


Thanks, William

I don’t see a date on it and I showed this to a Syrian colleague but he had trouble reading it. It’s a very nice example
 
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