Ottoman Guns

[RAEDWALD]

I wanted to show some of the work of Bulgarian craftsmen and enthusiasts.

Here is a Boyliya that was restored, having to make 645 rozetki and a ton of mother of pearl.
View attachment 188625

Boyliya lock with a newly fabricated cock
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View attachment 188627

Kariophili restored from just a rear part of the stock
View attachment 188628
View attachment 188629

Very nice Cyten. Do you have any more Bulgarian photographs?

 

[rickystl]

Some of the mainsprings on the Ottoman locks are ridiculously strong. I don't understand why they thought that was necessary. I guess they wanted to make sure the lock would produce a spark even with a dull flint. I would think this would wear out the frizzen face quickly. Maybe that's another reason they made many locks with replaceable frizzen faces ? Originally, a Spanish idea.

That photo of a miquelet gun does indeed look like it's from Southern Itlay, around the second quarter of the 17th century. The butt stock, trigger guard, and wide lock plate carry-overs from the wheellock period.

It is amazing how much of this stuff ended up in the USA.

Whoever did those restorations on the Boyliya and Kariophili is an incredible talent - and has the patience of a rock. Never seen better.

The Boyliya is one that I've never been able to add to my collection. Seems every one I run across is in either too poor of condition or way over priced. Bulgaria was a large gun making center during this period.

Rick

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

... I have a Jezail (yet to show you all pictures of it ... ) that is covered with 600+ pieces of Mother of Pearl, like a mosaic! It is soooooooo fragile, that if I don't handle it gently, pieces will fall out onto the floor!

Some day I'd like to effect a full restoration on it, as it has an incredible cannon muzzle ... but sometimes I'm just tempted to 'spray' the stock with a clear spray glue, LOL!

 

[Rudyard]

Wow Positively Wow!. I know what work went into that . Good on him who did it . I've a fragment of a stock sans lock or Brl but it will be reborn as a shinoni once I've time to turn to it', Many I've shewn where just sometimes literally thrown-away stock parts & are now examples of Moroccan, Algerian & Afghan arms not fakes just restorations from oddments .I often wonder if my new guns I made will be regarded in the next century of even this anti gun PC world .But we can only live for now .& wonder.
Regards Rudyard

 

[cyten]

Some of the mainsprings on the Ottoman locks are ridiculously strong. I don't understand why they thought that was necessary. I guess they wanted to make sure the lock would produce a spark even with a dull flint. I would think this would wear out the frizzen face quickly. Maybe that's another reason they made many locks with replaceable frizzen faces ? Originally, a Spanish idea.

That photo of a miquelet gun does indeed look like it's from Southern Itlay, around the second quarter of the 17th century. The butt stock, trigger guard, and wide lock plate carry-overs from the wheellock period.

It is amazing how much of this stuff ended up in the USA.

Whoever did those restorations on the Boyliya and Kariophili is an incredible talent - and has the patience of a rock. Never seen better.

The Boyliya is one that I've never been able to add to my collection. Seems every one I run across is in either too poor of condition or way over priced. Bulgaria was a large gun making center during this period.

Rick

Regarding the mainsprings, Elgood writes that flints were of poor quality from Turkey, so they made them high powered to make sure they will spark.

... I have a Jezail (yet to show you all pictures of it ... ) that is covered with 600+ pieces of Mother of Pearl, like a mosaic! It is soooooooo fragile, that if I don't handle it gently, pieces will fall out onto the floor!

Some day I'd like to effect a full restoration on it, as it has an incredible cannon muzzle ... but sometimes I'm just tempted to 'spray' the stock with a clear spray glue, LOL!

What are they held in by? I've read many were just held in by wax.

Very nice Cyten. Do you have any more Bulgarian photographs?

Here are some more.

This Shishane has a new made stock with 1100 rozetki made to copy this original.

This one just had bone inlays and 200 rozetki replaced

Which has the same lock as this 18th century dated Bulgarian made rifle recently sold at auction (for over $15k ) Notice the fabric covering the butt of the stock. This was a popular design particular to Bulgaria and I have only seen it done to Boyliya rifles. This Shishane is the only exception I've seen or heard of. The fabric covered guns are referred to as "Paragon" or "Paragun" which refers to a type of fabric with gold thread used in the Byzantine court called "Paragandama".

Here is a Boyliya Paragon.

And newly made fabric covering.

 

[rickystl]

... I have a Jezail (yet to show you all pictures of it ... ) that is covered with 600+ pieces of Mother of Pearl, like a mosaic! It is soooooooo fragile, that if I don't handle it gently, pieces will fall out onto the floor!

Some day I'd like to effect a full restoration on it, as it has an incredible cannon muzzle ... but sometimes I'm just tempted to 'spray' the stock with a clear spray glue, LOL!

Hi Flint

Same problem with my Persian gun. The entire stock is covered with a mosaic pattern that has now become delicate. It had 2-3 pieces missing when I first received the gun. But now has a few more that fell off (I saved). I may have to go the spray glue route myself.

WAIT !!! Hold off with any photos of your Jazail. I'm going to start a new Thread on Afghan guns. LOL

Rick

 

[cyten]

Rick, I have seen one other rifle with identical stock decoration but it was a Shishane. There is also this pistol with a very similar stock decoration. It's unusual enough seeing turkish locks on pistols

 

[rickystl]

"It's unusual enough seeing turkish locks on pistols"

Cyten: That pistol is a beauty !!!! And in this case, no doubt where it came from.

At least at some point, the Ottoman Turks seemed to prefer miquelet locks with their Shishana/Tufuk shoulder guns, and French style flintlocks for their pistols. At least during the 19th century. Curious. I base this on the many remaining examples of both today. I've never known/read any particular reason for this. And based on the volume of kubur (horse) pistols we see today, they must have been made in the thousands. And the continued use of the flintlock in this region through at least the 3rd quarter of the 19th century offer a still, large market for European exported locks and barrels. It is known that large trade fairs would assemble at various Eastern ports with European ships loaded with trade goods catering to these Eastern markets. And one could imagine locks and barrels would be included in the inventory. The local market for theses horse pistols must have been large and over a long period. So it may have been the imported locks and barrels were almost a necessity to satisfy the market. Of course, I'm just speculating here based on what little information we do have. But it is known that entire towns/villages were dedicated to arms making, often under contract to the Ottoman Empire.

Rick

 

[cyten]

"It's unusual enough seeing turkish locks on pistols"

Cyten: That pistol is a beauty !!!! And in this case, no doubt where it came from.

At least at some point, the Ottoman Turks seemed to prefer miquelet locks with their Shishana/Tufuk shoulder guns, and French style flintlocks for their pistols. At least during the 19th century. Curious. I base this on the many remaining examples of both today. I've never known/read any particular reason for this. And based on the volume of kubur (horse) pistols we see today, they must have been made in the thousands. And the continued use of the flintlock in this region through at least the 3rd quarter of the 19th century offer a still, large market for European exported locks and barrels. It is known that large trade fairs would assemble at various Eastern ports with European ships loaded with trade goods catering to these Eastern markets. And one could imagine locks and barrels would be included in the inventory. The local market for theses horse pistols must have been large and over a long period. So it may have been the imported locks and barrels were almost a necessity to satisfy the market. Of course, I'm just speculating here based on what little information we do have. But it is known that entire towns/villages were dedicated to arms making, often under contract to the Ottoman Empire.

Rick

In terms of the preference of the Miquelet over the French styled Flintlocks, it seems they took a very "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" attitude on them. The Ottoman military really started to modernized/conform to the Western European style in the 1820's, I suppose the Flintlocks really started to become normalized after this.

Of interest, perhaps only to myself, I've noticed at least 6 guns with the same lock and pattern on it found in very different regions. From the Bulgarian Paragon I posted above I saw this familiar starburst pattern. I have now seen it on a Dzeferdar from Kotor (Montenegro), a Khirimi from Georgia, Paragon from Bulgaria, Shishane from Turkey, and the Ferguson from Egypt that our dear Rudyard documented. The Shishane is dated to 1797 and the Egyptian rifle belonged to Murad Bey, who died in 1801, so they are perhaps all 18th century.

 

[TobJohn]

In terms of the preference of the Miquelet over the French styled Flintlocks, it seems they took a very "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" attitude on them. The Ottoman military really started to modernized/conform to the Western European style in the 1820's, I suppose the Flintlocks really started to become normalized after this.

Of interest, perhaps only to myself, I've noticed at least 6 guns with the same lock and pattern on it found in very different regions. From the Bulgarian Paragon I posted above I saw this familiar starburst pattern. I have now seen it on a Dzeferdar from Kotor (Montenegro), a Khirimi from Georgia, Paragon from Bulgaria, Shishane from Turkey, and the Ferguson from Egypt that our dear Rudyard documented. The Shishane is dated to 1797 and the Egyptian rifle belonged to Murad Bey, who died in 1801, so they are perhaps all 18th century.
View attachment 191727

Fascinating! They are all so similar I doublechecked they were not the literal same lock.

 

[cyten]

Fascinating! They are all so similar I doublechecked they were not the literal same lock.

Yes it really is interesting that such a decorated lock was exported out so much

 

[rickystl]

Think of all the man hours used to make decorations and apply to the gun stocks. Even middle of the road type guns were often decorated to some degree. There must have been hundreds of workers dedicated to this. While gun decoration is nothing new, you have to wonder why they found the need to do so on such a wide scale?

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Think of all the man hours used to make decorations and apply to the gun stocks. Even middle of the road type guns were often decorated to some degree. There must have been hundreds of workers dedicated to this. While gun decoration is nothing new, you have to wonder why they found the need to do so on such a wide scale?

Rick

I read it somewhere (or heard it back when I was in college) but can’t remember where now, that in these societies (early modern Europe/pre colonization Asia), the cost of labor and time is not transferable to modern standards. By non transferable, its that there is not a way to simply convert the ducats they were paid into modern currency, because the way they were paid, their living costs, and hours do not fit into a modern capitalist system. It was much more feasible to have a shop/guild/worker spend the extreme man hours on menial artistic task. I can be misremembering, so please take this with a grain of salt.

 

[Janissary]

"It's unusual enough seeing turkish locks on pistols"

Cyten: That pistol is a beauty !!!! And in this case, no doubt where it came from.

At least at some point, the Ottoman Turks seemed to prefer miquelet locks with their Shishana/Tufuk shoulder guns, and French style flintlocks for their pistols. At least during the 19th century. Curious. I base this on the many remaining examples of both today. I've never known/read any particular reason for this. And based on the volume of kubur (horse) pistols we see today, they must have been made in the thousands. And the continued use of the flintlock in this region through at least the 3rd quarter of the 19th century offer a still, large market for European exported locks and barrels. It is known that large trade fairs would assemble at various Eastern ports with European ships loaded with trade goods catering to these Eastern markets. And one could imagine locks and barrels would be included in the inventory. The local market for theses horse pistols must have been large and over a long period. So it may have been the imported locks and barrels were almost a necessity to satisfy the market. Of course, I'm just speculating here based on what little information we do have. But it is known that entire towns/villages were dedicated to arms making, often under contract to the Ottoman Empire.

Rick

The miquelet is easier to maintain in dusty military conditions, and strikes better with a dull flint. Perhaps pistols were more likely to be used by wealthier people in cleaner conditions.

 

[Janissary]

Curious if anyone has advice on reproducing the trigger and pan mechanism for a matchlock.

I don't have a workshop myself so I will have to find a local machinist or blacksmith and tell them what to do.

What type of modern metal to use? Generic low carbon steel? Or something easier to machine? Is stainless okay or will it look unrealistically shiny? Not sure where to find period accurate iron stock.

I can see on page 1 of the Indian M/L thread, Ricky posted a picture of the trigger mechanism. The spring is part of the trigger. So I suppose the metal has to be reasonably springy. And perhaps the match holder needs to be a bit springy so that it compresses on the match?

 

[rickystl]

Hi Janissary

Actually, the spring is a separate piece that is riveted to the trigger bar with a tiny pin. IMHO your best bet to have a complete, working mechanism made would be to ask Jeff Miller by email sending him the photo I posted and asking him if he would be interested in making same. You can mention that I would send him my original mechanism for him to use as a pattern. This would likely save him (and you!) a ton of time. And while you're at it, you might consider sending your barrel to him to make a correct looking pan/cover and dove-tailing it to the breech of your barrel. Don't know what all this would cost. But from personal experience, it would be very reasonable.
Then you would have a finished lock and barrel that can approach a local, experienced builder. Just some thoughts.

Jeff is not only a builder, but also a master blacksmith with a good understanding of the "old" stuff. LOL He has done much work for me. And a great guy to work with.

Flintlock Forge

Rick

 

[Janissary]

Hi Janissary

Actually, the spring is a separate piece that is riveted to the trigger bar with a tiny pin. IMHO your best bet to have a complete, working mechanism made would be to ask Jeff Miller by email sending him the photo I posted and asking him if he would be interested in making same. You can mention that I would send him my original mechanism for him to use as a pattern. This would likely save him (and you!) a ton of time. And while you're at it, you might consider sending your barrel to him to make a correct looking pan/cover and dove-tailing it to the breech of your barrel. Don't know what all this would cost. But from personal experience, it would be very reasonable.
Then you would have a finished lock and barrel that can approach a local, experienced builder. Just some thoughts.

Jeff is not only a builder, but also a master blacksmith with a good understanding of the "old" stuff. LOL He has done much work for me. And a great guy to work with.

Flintlock Forge

Rick

Rick you are a godsend. Don't know what I'd be doing without you. I've emailed Jeff now.

 

[Rudyard]

Curious if anyone has advice on reproducing the trigger and pan mechanism for a matchlock.

I don't have a workshop myself so I will have to find a local machinist or blacksmith and tell them what to do.

What type of modern metal to use? Generic low carbon steel? Or something easier to machine? Is stainless okay or will it look unrealistically shiny? Not sure where to find period accurate iron stock.

I can see on page 1 of the Indian M/L thread, Ricky posted a picture of the trigger mechanism. The spring is part of the trigger. So I suppose the metal has to be reasonably springy. And perhaps the match holder needs to be a bit springy so that it compresses on the match?

Dear Janisary. I just came accros you post re M lock steels ect . The original would be wrought iron with some parts haveing added carbon for springs today we are looking at mild steel & a slightly higher carbon like say an old car spring or lawn mower blade are fine .The rest is following the many illustrated inside & outside original locks of whatever style you fancy to best suit the stocking style ?/ period National differences ect . It would all hacksaw or grind and when together you couls case harden the moveing parts & you need perhaps to anneal the sprig then smith it to your needs then harden the temper the spring . which probably sounds high teck but its not really nor need it be perfect finnish .' slight crude' is a nice feature (definatly had that !) some taps & dies are needed so long as they don't glare modern . youle be right .The spring needn't be that critical it dosn't do much I made a ML with a small scear spring its been in it 50 odd years still fine & Some lawnmower blades have a bend and I've used them as they came only fettled them to shape nor at a push are you ever likley to have wear issues if you don't case harden it will work for Donkey's years anyway.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Janissary]

Anybody happen to know the widths of the stocks of any of these matchlocks?

 

[Rudyard]

Anybody happen to know the widths of the stocks of any of these matchlocks?

I see I've got a few typoes, , If I trust you got the Jist .
Re width the breach of your barrel seldom has a lot of surrounding wood ,Figure a shy 1/4" each side .The butt end is often about 1 & 1 half" wide scarce more & it goes from a thinnish upper to a hollowed section to a flat bit & the bottom faceted rather than a harsh flat section This being the Mid 17th common sorts . The Caliver was given in one specification As ' Brl" Fower Foot 'w a bore of 10 to the pound standing .12 c rowling " One Parlimentry Richard Newdigate pointing out " Much genius resides in Warwickshire" from memory. Thusly a usefull MP who helped Birmingham grow to the gun trade .It became. It might have been 17 shillings a piece ready money '.

In the Book By Lenk 'The origin and development of the flintlock ' depicts a short matchlock 'Western Europe C 1630 . I liked the look so I made one 36" 12 bore ( incidently useing the small trigger Scear ) We used it at game fairs to shoot clays and would let anyone shoot it since it was just as handy as a more modern gun . ' We' being Sheffield Branch MLAGB on the grounds of Chatsworth house . This being English guna not the Ottoman/ Turkish & varients or any Indian Matchlock .
Regards Rudyard