Ottoman Guns

[PhDBrewer]

I don’t see a date on it and I showed this to a Syrian colleague but he had trouble reading it. It’s a very nice example

Thanks! I am planning on building it out and have a bit of research ahead of me.
William

 

[rickystl]

In the Pitt Rivers museum. A half stock. I wonder if it was repaired from a damaged fore stock or made that way originally.

Hi Sam

Hmmmm. My first thought was that due to the length of the barrel, it was originally a full stock that might have been damaged, and professionally cut back to a half stock. On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be a provision for a ramrod. Plus, the rest of the stock appears in great shape. So maybe it was made this way for sporting/target use (?) I've seen only a half-dozen or so like this.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Hi Brewer

Sorry I can't help with the translation. It's interesting that many of these Algerian locks have both the maker's signature/mark and a date engraved on the bottom of the locks. Others may have only the maker's mark with no date. Still others will have the decorative engraving only.
In any case, your lock is a nice example.

Rick

 

[PhDBrewer]

Hi Brewer

Sorry I can't help with the translation. It's interesting that many of these Algerian locks have both the maker's signature/mark and a date engraved on the bottom of the locks. Others may have only the maker's mark with no date. Still others will have the decorative engraving only.
In any case, your lock is a nice example.

Rick

Thanks Rick. As I stated above, I am hoping to build this out into a functional piece using "old" parts. I recently saw a very similar lock at a flea market and went back to get it, but could never locate that dealer again. Argggg! When you see it you have to buy it!
I would not make changes to the lock, only use it. One could always remove it.
Thanks for all your contributions. I have been admiring many items from your collection!

William

 

[springfield art]

Did you build those? Looks like something you'd do. Nice pieces. How about a description, I don't know a thing about guns from the East

They look like new builds. Very unusual to see!

 

[Isaac D Rainey]

Here is a nice Čibuklija I held a couple months ago from a private collection. Sorry I don's have better photos. It is a 17th century example. Very Italianate features with an Ottoman barrel.

 

[Sam squanch]

How did that thing feel on the shoulder when you looked down the barrel?

 

[Isaac D Rainey]

How did that thing feel on the shoulder when you looked down the barrel?

The detail I remember most was how front heavy the gun was. It felt more conventional than expected while shouldering it, but without a rest it was a bit cumbersome.

 

[rickystl]

That gun does indeed look 17th century. At least from the one distant photo. Would love to see close ups of the lock and muzzle. The overall proportions almost make it look like a wall gun or similar. That has to be a very cool gun.

 

[cyten]

Here is a nice Čibuklija I held a couple months ago from a private collection. Sorry I don's have better photos. It is a 17th century example. Very Italianate features with an Ottoman barrel.

Judging by the name of the photo, did you indeed see the good Dr. Elgood? It is a nice early example!


Found this interesting Shishane utilizing the Algerian stlyed Agujeta lock. Seems the dog catch would be uncomfortable for your wrist?

I've also been in touch with a couple of the Bulgarian reenactors/builders and will hopefully be meeting with them in a few weeks!

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

That is the first Ottoman gun I've seen with an Algerian lock. Quite unusual.

Appears muzzle loading still lives and thrives in Bulgaria. What a great photo and display of arms. If you are able to meet with them, please give them our regards from the Forum. Maybe you can convince some of them to join the Forum ? It would be great to have them post their guns and accouterments. With today's translation software, this shouldn't be the challenge it use to be.

Rick

 

[Isaac D Rainey]

Judging by the name of the photo, did you indeed see the good Dr. Elgood? It is a nice early example!


Found this interesting Shishane utilizing the Algerian stlyed Agujeta lock. Seems the dog catch would be uncomfortable for your wrist?
View attachment 221360

I've also been in touch with a couple of the Bulgarian reenactors/builders and will hopefully be meeting with them in a few weeks!
View attachment 221362

Well....I meant to leave his name out of it, but it is my fault for forgetting the file name had his name. The Algerian lock gun is fantastic. Also, how do you use the word şeşhane/şişhane? From my understanding from Ottoman sources, it is only used to refer to rifled guns (sometimes written as şeşhaneli meaning "of şişhane" which is a place in Istanbul). Did this word gain other meaning later? Because I only see it used for rifled guns.

 

[Rudyard]

They look like new builds. Very unusual to see!

Well the locks & barrels are old the stocking is new other than one brass decorated original that has the long range sight .It was mostly a case of putting floating parts often thrown away into some context . Welcome to the forum by the way Isaac.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Rudyard, wonderful work! I'm looking for a nice (cheap) blank to carve a new stock for my Shishane, just so I wont have to worry about opening up the cracks ive fixed.
Ricky, I believe you are right about the cartridge boxes (palaskas) being used for the pistols. Though I have not examined any in person. And I have had a difficult time finding examples of original paper cartridges from the region.
Stecal, I too have a huge interest in these Ottoman styled guns but have until a few weeks back been able to find one for sale that was less than $3000! Original barrels and locks can still be had for pretty cheap in Bulgaria where many reenactors build their own from existing parts. I've been 3 times in the last 2 years but mostly looking for Krnka rifles.

Dear Cyten Ive still got the wood & ime getting too'Creaky' to use it all up.
Regards Rudyard

 

[cyten]

Hi Cyten

That is the first Ottoman gun I've seen with an Algerian lock. Quite unusual.

Appears muzzle loading still lives and thrives in Bulgaria. What a great photo and display of arms. If you are able to meet with them, please give them our regards from the Forum. Maybe you can convince some of them to join the Forum ? It would be great to have them post their guns and accouterments. With today's translation software, this shouldn't be the challenge it use to be.

Rick

I'm hoping I can convince them.

Well....I meant to leave his name out of it, but it is my fault for forgetting the file name had his name. The Algerian lock gun is fantastic. Also, how do you use the word şeşhane/şişhane? From my understanding from Ottoman sources, it is only used to refer to rifled guns (sometimes written as şeşhaneli meaning "of şişhane" which is a place in Istanbul). Did this word gain other meaning later? Because I only see it used for rifled guns.

Very cool acquaintance to have! I also understand that şişhane is for rifled guns as well, but I tend to use it if I dont know whether it is rifled or not because tufek is still in use in modern turkish for "rifle". So for the sake of search engine algorithms, I use shishane to drive traffic towards topics like these for people who may be interested and looking for info.

Dear Cyten Ive still got the wood & ime getting too'Creaky' to use it all up.
Regards Rudyard

I'll send you a private message.

 

[Barud]

Glad to see this thread going strong, as well as the topic itself in various other threads in the forum. Hope you all are having good days.

Well....I meant to leave his name out of it, but it is my fault for forgetting the file name had his name. The Algerian lock gun is fantastic. Also, how do you use the word şeşhane/şişhane? From my understanding from Ottoman sources, it is only used to refer to rifled guns (sometimes written as şeşhaneli meaning "of şişhane" which is a place in Istanbul). Did this word gain other meaning later? Because I only see it used for rifled guns.

Şeşhaneli could alternatively mean "six portioned/chambered/housed". What şeşhane means is still a point of contention in Turkish military historiography, especially given the Turkish idiom "altı kaval üstü şeşhane" (cylindirical/smooth below, şeşhane above) referring to awkward things (was it meant to refer to a double barreled gun with one rifled and one smooth barrel? A paradox barrel? A half-hexagonal barrel? Who knows?). My assumption is that it once referred to the rifle's twist rate or the amount of grooves in the rifling, and eventually became a catch-all name for rifling. Honestly, I'm not sure if Şişhane the neighborhood has anything to do with şeşhane the weapons term, especially since şeşhane is also a name for a six-string instrument, and etymology as a field is rather terra incognita in Turkish.

 

[rickystl]

I, and other collectors have generally used the term shishane to refer to a shoulder gun with a rifled barrel. And tufek to refer to the same gun with a smooth bore barrel. (there seems to be different spellings for both terms). But the terms seem to be interchangeable depending on what part of the World you are standing at the moment. So I can't confirm the accuracy of either terms. But I've been using both terms for some 40+ years. LOL

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Dear Cyten Ive still got the wood & ime getting too'Creaky' to use it all up.
Regards Rudyard

Hi Rudyard. I know the feeling, sad to say.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Continuing my posts from the museum, they also had a great room of near East arms and armor. I forgot to get a picture of the long arm display, but ottoman and Caucasian long arms are much daintier than I had imagined.

 

[Rudyard]

All good stuff as normal . Re terms I thought' Tufancha' was a Carbine wether rifled or smooth, if only ones I had were rifled with the' Shearbachar' ? rear sight .If I do have a round smooth barrel 26" long with that sort of humped rear sight well worn but great Damascus twisted welds . I expect the terms varied region to region anyway .ditto pronouncing them would vary as a matter of course,
Regards Rudyard .

PS for Tobjohn to E RA he' if his dates fit is expected.R