Ottoman Guns

[rickystl]

The Bulgarian lock certainly is distinguishable from others in the region. Very nice example you have, I'm amazed you have found all these different locks in the USA. There is a town in Bulgaria called Sliven that was a huge gun making center in Ottoman times, obviously they are famous for their Boyliya rifles but also made Shishane, Tanchica, etc.
Here is a photo of what appears to be a Shishane with a Bulgarian style lock, and a trigger guard
View attachment 152895


Trigger guards are definitely not the norm for this region but they did pop up rarely. Some collectors believe they are a 20th century addition by folks who believe they were missing (like your Tufek brass butt cap) but some period photos like this one dispel that.


View attachment 152896

Even stranger and more rare is a conventional western style trigger and trigger guard, have never seen in person but in two photos, both from Bulgaria. The first of a revolutionary named Todor Dimitrov Nestorov who died in the Anti Ottoman Uprising of 1876. Note the faint detail of the trigger and guard like that of any other western European gun and his attire that looks to be a Greek or Albanian Fustanella (skirt)
View attachment 152897

The second being Ivan Zerdaliyski, another Bulgarian revolutionary with a percussion conversion miquelet and western style trigger and guard
View attachment 152898

The Bulgarian lock certainly is distinguishable from others in the region. Very nice example you have, I'm amazed you have found all these different locks in the USA. There is a town in Bulgaria called Sliven that was a huge gun making center in Ottoman times, obviously they are famous for their Boyliya rifles but also made Shishane, Tanchica, etc.
Here is a photo of what appears to be a Shishane with a Bulgarian style lock, and a trigger guard
View attachment 152895


Trigger guards are definitely not the norm for this region but they did pop up rarely. Some collectors believe they are a 20th century addition by folks who believe they were missing (like your Tufek brass butt cap) but some period photos like this one dispel that.


View attachment 152896

Even stranger and more rare is a conventional western style trigger and trigger guard, have never seen in person but in two photos, both from Bulgaria. The first of a revolutionary named Todor Dimitrov Nestorov who died in the Anti Ottoman Uprising of 1876. Note the faint detail of the trigger and guard like that of any other western European gun and his attire that looks to be a Greek or Albanian Fustanella (skirt)
View attachment 152897

The second being Ivan Zerdaliyski, another Bulgarian revolutionary with a percussion conversion miquelet and western style trigger and guard
View attachment 152898

That is the first Sishane I've seen with a Bulgarian style lock. Since these guns were made one at a time, we could assume that most any style/combination was available to a perspective customer. On the other hand, what was available at the time of the build and location of the shop would influence the final gun parts used. And with the variety of decoration, each gun turned out somewhat unique.

Agree. Trigger guards were quite rare with these Ottoman style shoulder guns. Apparently, they felt there was no use for a guard when built with the short, ball style trigger. And a bit less weight. The only one I personally handled with a guard was an obvious 20th Century addition add by someone who didn't know better. But as you mention, on a rare occasion one shows up with an original guard. Also note in your photo example the more Western style and placement of the rear sight.

The guns with percussion locks are also very less common. Apparently, the cost and availability of percussion caps in the Region made the user of these later locks impractical. Thus the continued use of flintlocks through most of the 19th Century.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

For the butt stock addition on my Tufuk we used two medium sized steel rods and epoxy to fasten it. Feels very solid now.

While your in Turkey, maybe you will be able to see the one guy and take some photos if you plan to be in his area. Would be interesting.

Both my Sishane and Tufuk have those holes drilled the length of their fore stocks. Must have been a common build feature. Not sure of the purpose, other than weight reduction. But possibly something to do with facilitating the ramrod (?) Something worth speculating on. Maybe the group in Bulgaria know. Would also be fun to have an exchange with one or more of their members.

Looking at your last photos, someone has their work cut out for them. LOL I don't envy that restoration. WOW!! Speaking of rozetki, I sent bobi13 an email on the other Forum a couple weeks ago. But have not heard back. He probably just has not been on that Forum lately.

Green Dye: Thanks. That makes complete sense.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

I cannot justify it right now, but if anyone else is trying to own an ottoman musket...
OTTOMAN Turkish Antique SHISHANA Miquelet Rifle for sale

 

[cyten]

Well I’m halfway through my trip in Turkey and haven’t seen much outside of museums


Another one of those ornately carved guns though of note is the use of the sun wheel (Georgian: Borjgali) (Armenian: Arevakhach) on the stock which is a very deeply rooted Caucasian symbol, but I’ve not seen any use of these types of guns in that area.

Also found a nice little antique shop in a remote hazelnut farm village on the Black Sea that had 7 powder measures! Picked out my favorite ones and will compare how many grains each marking represents when I get home.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

Hope you get at least one "surprise" during your trip.

That percussion long gun with the "Rumelian" style butt stock, shows an obvious period conversion from flintlock to percussion. Curious why they are calling it Spanish ? Possibly there are Spanish markings/proofs on the barrel. Which would not be surprising.

Those adjustable powder measures are a nice little find. While the decoration can very, the general size and design seems to have developed into a common, popular pattern. Many of those also show up here in the States. They were made of good quality brass and precision assembled. Must have been a successful design as they all look the same.
I found mine at Antique Arms Show in Baltimore a few years ago. It showed only light usage, and works perfectly. There's no set screw. The adjustable stem works off friction. But it's precision made and works.
I still haven't check mine out to see how many grains of FFG powder each mark represents. Need to do that. Thanks for the reminder.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Hi Cyten

Hope you get at least one "surprise" during your trip.

That percussion long gun with the "Rumelian" style butt stock, shows an obvious period conversion from flintlock to percussion. Curious why they are calling it Spanish ? Possibly there are Spanish markings/proofs on the barrel. Which would not be surprising.

The Istanbul museum has a great collection but the labels and information are very lacking. Mausers labeled as "needle guns" Krnkas labeled as "snider" etc etc So the Spanish label is probably a guess.

Those adjustable powder measures are a nice little find. While the decoration can very, the general size and design seems to have developed into a common, popular pattern. Many of those also show up here in the States. They were made of good quality brass and precision assembled. Must have been a successful design as they all look the same.
I found mine at Antique Arms Show in Baltimore a few years ago. It showed only light usage, and works perfectly. There's no set screw. The adjustable stem works off friction. But it's precision made and works.
I still haven't check mine out to see how many grains of FFG powder each mark represents. Need to do that. Thanks for the reminder.

I've been after one for a few years but the few I came across in the states were not in good shape and priced at a premium, so I'm happy I found these. Yours, though plain, appears in very good shape and with that lanyard chain! I've seen that style of chain on some other Ottoman accoutrements as well as leather string.

I came across 2 guns while out there, but both were new made touristic pieces with original locks.

Owner of the shop was not too interested in selling as it was priced at thousands of dollars(I found it under a pile of tourist knives)

I did manage to find a grease box in a small shop that was part of the mosque in another town

In the museum there was interesting rifle with some kind of apparatus on the rear sight, not exactly sure what it’s function was and no one in the museum was able to give any input, perhaps it lifts up to add range?

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

Sounds like your trip to Turkey went OK. You're right. Often museums don't really know what they have.

Measure (mine). Locating a source for this style of chain has always escaped me. I have a box with a variety of old chain, but nothing like this.

Tourist Guns: During the 1950's and 60's many of the tourist guns would show up with original locks. Sometime during the 1970's the supply of original locks appeared to dry up.

Grease Container: That's what most collectors today call these little brass containers that were cast in two pieces. Some think they were used to carry tobacco. But they are too small for tobacco. And the grease for shooting patches doesn't make sense to me either, as the opening lid is too small. My current opinion is that these little containers were used to carry small kindling, to keep it dry for fire starting.
Of course, that's also just speculation on my part. Curious no one has come up with a definitive, original use for these containers. I own two of these. One in rather ragged condition, and the other a nice one like yours.

Long Range Rear Sight: I seen a variety of these Ottoman shoulder guns with these rear sights. All I've seen, whether short or tall, are forged on to the rear of the barrel, or the breech plug itself. This is the first I've seen per your post above. Judging from the back of the sight it would appear that knob on the top of the sight might turn in some fashion to release the rear sight when not required (?) Just my guess. The Ottomans certainly had different ideas than their European counterparts for designing peep sights. LOL

Rick

 

[cyten]

Grease Container: That's what most collectors today call these little brass containers that were cast in two pieces. Some think they were used to carry tobacco. But they are too small for tobacco. And the grease for shooting patches doesn't make sense to me either, as the opening lid is too small. My current opinion is that these little containers were used to carry small kindling, to keep it dry for fire starting.
Of course, that's also just speculation on my part. Curious no one has come up with a definitive, original use for these containers. I own two of these. One in rather ragged condition, and the other a nice one like yours.

Long Range Rear Sight: I seen a variety of these Ottoman shoulder guns with these rear sights. All I've seen, whether short or tall, are forged on to the rear of the barrel, or the breech plug itself. This is the first I've seen per your post above. Judging from the back of the sight it would appear that knob on the top of the sight might turn in some fashion to release the rear sight when not required (?) Just my guess. The Ottomans certainly had different ideas than their European counterparts for designing peep sights. LOL

Rick

These boxes do seem an odd shape and small to carry anything substantial. In Tbilisi when I showed the owner of a small museum my example and asked him what it was for he immediately said it was for "carrying oil for the gun" and had a specific name for it in Georgian, "saqone". Also pointed out that it was Ottoman design and that in the Caucasus they had their own style but both could be found in the region.
Here are a couple of guns that were dated from the 18th century, the first being 1797

This one even has it's original sling

From what I've seen, it seems the round barrels are usually only found on examples pre-19th century and always have a flared or cannon muzzle, where as the octagonal barrels are usually on late 18th century and beyond. Not conclusive of course, just and observation.

Digging through old catalogs, I found an advertisement from the 1927 Bannerman catalog showing these Shishane, Tancica, and Kariofili for sale.

And from the 1911 Adolph Frank Alfa Waffenkatalog, listed as "Arabian Flint Muskets"

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

Thanks for your last Posts.

Small Container: Used for carrying oil ? Hmmm. Could be. But, to me, oil makes a bit less sense than grease. Even with the semi-friction fit of the lid to the container using the leather carrying straps, I would think that oil would tend to leak out through the lid. A small piece of horn or bottle would be more secure for carrying oil in a pouch. Putting your finger down that small opening to secure some grease doesn't make any sense either. Of course, I often try to view things from a shooters perspective. So I think the jury is still out on their original, intended use. I suspect these little containers were still made through at least the early 20th century, as there are many for sale today. Maybe they eventually evolved into tourist items.

Nice to see a couple documented pre-1800 examples. Then, as now, the best quality firearms tended to get the best care by it's owners.

Those Bannerman catalogs. If only I had a time machine. LOL. In past decades, dealers in antique guns would only take in these Eastern type guns on consignment. The market was just too small. Which is the likely reason their sale price never equaled their European counterparts. Which is still basically true today. But in the last decade or so, I've seen pricing for these guns steadily rising. Don't really know the reason.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Hi Cyten

Thanks for your last Posts.

Small Container: Used for carrying oil ? Hmmm. Could be. But, to me, oil makes a bit less sense than grease. Even with the semi-friction fit of the lid to the container using the leather carrying straps, I would think that oil would tend to leak out through the lid. A small piece of horn or bottle would be more secure for carrying oil in a pouch. Putting your finger down that small opening to secure some grease doesn't make any sense either. Of course, I often try to view things from a shooters perspective. So I think the jury is still out on their original, intended use. I suspect these little containers were still made through at least the early 20th century, as there are many for sale today. Maybe they eventually evolved into tourist items.

With no documentation, of course so much is just assumption. The word for oil and grease in Russian is the same, so it could be a misunderstanding on my part with the Runglish conversation he and I were having. It is possible they were made much later than a lot of objects. There are A LOT of priming flasks that were made as tourist objects in the 1950's-1960's and some powder measures as well, they are all identical and easy to spot if you know what to look for.

I wanted to show another one of the many ways these guns were used with slings. The slots in the forend that we normally associate with Hawken rifles and keys that hold the barrel in the stock are actually used for sling slots. A leather sling could put pushed through, it could be done Mosin Nagant style, sometimes keys with metal sling loops were inserted, and then there was this method.

the front end is done in one of the aforementioned ways and the rear is tightly wrapped around the wrist. This can be seen being used all the way up into the 20th century with modern breechloaders.
Here is a photo from 1918 of three Laz men (Georgian ethnic group from Black Sea region of Turkey) with this style of sling attachment on their Berdan rifles and one muzzleloader

 

[Rudyard]

With no documentation, of course so much is just assumption. The word for oil and grease in Russian is the same, so it could be a misunderstanding on my part with the Runglish conversation he and I were having. It is possible they were made much later than a lot of objects. There are A LOT of priming flasks that were made as tourist objects in the 1950's-1960's and some powder measures as well, they are all identical and easy to spot if you know what to look for.

View attachment 159667
I wanted to show another one of the many ways these guns were used with slings. The slots in the forend that we normally associate with Hawken rifles and keys that hold the barrel in the stock are actually used for sling slots. A leather sling could put pushed through, it could be done Mosin Nagant style, sometimes keys with metal sling loops were inserted, and then there was this method.
View attachment 159666
the front end is done in one of the aforementioned ways and the rear is tightly wrapped around the wrist. This can be seen being used all the way up into the 20th century with modern breechloaders.
Here is a photo from 1918 of three Laz men (Georgian ethnic group from Black Sea region of Turkey) with this style of sling attachment on their Berdan rifles and one muzzleloader

View attachment 159668

As ever your a positive gem of interesting info
. Regards Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Many years ago, when I first became interested in these guns, I too thought those empty slots were for a barrel key that was missing. But the first time I removed a barrel from it's stock, I realized there was never any barrel lugs to begin with. And with the barrel bands, wedge attachment wouldn't be necessary anyway. Hmmmm. Scratching my head LOL. It was only later that I became aware these slots are for sling attachment.
Here are some photos from a fellow collector that show what is likely one of the common ways of attaching the sling through the slot(s). Simple, yet probably effective. The lower photo shows what appears to be a series of slots cut into the sling for a variety of adjustments.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

For my Caucasian rifle, I had a pair of sling bars/rings made similar to your mention above. These can easily be removed if not needed.

Rick

 

[cyten]

I’ve seen more Caucasian guns with their original sling than Ottoman, but it was all done similarly.

Here is another photo from a Hungarian book showing this sling setup

Rick, do you find any problems with the tabs in terms of strength when it’s slung?

 

[rickystl]

The photos I posted above showing the original sling and attachment method was also on a Caucasian rifle.

The sling bar and ring attachment I posted was more of an idea/experiment of my own. Although I've seen similar attachment rings on various Eastern market guns, as you have probably also seen. However, there are two problems with my sling bar idea. 1. The flat bar has no flex, and will not allow a wood ramrod of reasonable diameter to pass through the ramrod hole. You have to use a thinner, iron ramrod. 2. Even though many of these guns don't weigh as much as full-sized European military style muskets, I would worry that the flat metal bar would start to cut into the wood stock with the weight of the gun during shoulder carry. So, I've mostly discarded this idea.
The original leather not version above would allow some flex so the wood ramrod could pass through and help keep the rod from sliding forward. As long as the sling leather is not too stiff.
Today, the easy method is to use a powder horn shoulder strap as a sling for these guns.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Interesting, I hadnt considered the interference of the ramrod. Definitely makes sense about the leather knot then. Here are some more photos of the sling arrangements.

Sling ring bar

Wrist wrap

Leather knot

 

[Barud]

I have seen a lot of speculation on whether guns like yours were in fact made to have such a short stock or missing the second part. I'm in agreeance with you that it was missing in fact and that they all had this missing. For many, it is a much easier repair to tack on a sheet of brass, leather, etc than to attach a piece of wood. Great job with yours by the way, Rick!
Aside from the folks in Bulgaria, I know of only one man who does any restoration of these guns in Turkey

View attachment 152899

It's so interesting about the multiple holes drilled in the barrel channel, I suppose it was to help with making the ramrod channel since they are fully enclosed on the outside of the stock, mine has these holes as well, does yours?
View attachment 152900

View attachment 152901

The nightmare of removing and replacing all those rozetki...
View attachment 152902



And as to the question on the green dyed bone/ivory. The only explanation I can come up with other than just aesthetics, is that green is a symbol of Islam. In the Ottoman Empire it was forbidden for Christians to own/possess guns or even mount a horse! But obviously, like all gun control, this never worked. That being said, the only legal clients of the gun makers would be Muslims, so I can see them wanting some green on the gun to accent the religious inscriptions that are often found on them too.

Hello,

Would it be possible for you to share this man's contact information? I occasionally stumble upon tufeks in rough condition but without any smith I can trust it feels like they'd be a rather weak investment. Unfortunately none of the antique dealers I know know of any smiths.

 

[cyten]

Hello,

Would it be possible for you to share this man's contact information? I occasionally stumble upon tufeks in rough condition but without any smith I can trust it feels like they'd be a rather weak investment. Unfortunately none of the antique dealers I know know of any smiths.

Ana sayfa his name is Murat Ikiz

 

[Barud]

Ana sayfa his name is Murat Ikiz

Much thanks! I'll get in contact with him and see if he can have something salvaged from all the tidbits that I end up seeing (and not buying, most of the time).

Speaking of Ottoman guns, here is an interesting one. It's a smooth bore and takes on a more Western flavor with it's stock and traditional style flintlock. There are tiny traces that the barrel was once blued. The barrel bands and butt plate have evidence they were originally treated to a clorsonne enamel coating, usually only seen on Caucasian gun barrel bands. The simple trade lock may be a period replacement as the vent hole does not line up exactly.

Something else I've noticed with these guns. Even well made and decorated, many of these guns show up with just mediocre lock inletting. Always found this curious.

RickView attachment 148543View attachment 148544View attachment 148545View attachment 148546View attachment 148548

Regarding this sort of firearm, the collector/seller/antiquarian circles here in Turkey tend to call this the Zeytuni (i.e. of Zeitun) or the Zeytun Acarı (i.e. the Bold one of Zeitun) or one of the many variations thereof. I am not certain which it is, although Zeytuni feels appropriate. Apparently this sort of weapon was unique to the Armenians. All the examples I have seen to date (save the one in the quotes) had been converted to percussion, and the metal was in poor condition.

 

[cyten]

Much thanks! I'll get in contact with him and see if he can have something salvaged from all the tidbits that I end up seeing (and not buying, most of the time).

I reached out to him a few times right before I went to Turkey last month but got nothing back, hope you have better luck.

Regarding this sort of firearm, the collector/seller/antiquarian circles here in Turkey tend to call this the Zeytuni (i.e. of Zeitun) or the Zeytun Acarı (i.e. the Bold one of Zeitun) or one of the many variations thereof. I am not certain which it is, although Zeytuni feels appropriate. Apparently this sort of weapon was unique to the Armenians. All the examples I have seen to date (save the one in the quotes) had been converted to percussion, and the metal was in poor condition.

That's very interesting. I am currently living in Armenia, in a region called Zeytun! I have not seen this type of gun anywhere in Armenia, the very few arms in museums here are more of the typical Shishane type. Here is an illustration of "a typical man from Zeytun" ca.1870's