Ottoman Guns

[rickystl]

Hello Rick,

I know the prices are ridiculous compared to the US, but honestly it seems like all the good pieces were exported to Europe and/or the US and now what we're left with is, well, either attic dwellers in terrible condition (pitted and/or rusted beyond all recognition), or the victim of last century's Bubba (shishanas with the barrels chopped to convert to breechloading, or with crudely made nipples welded on along with cheap or even homemade back-action percussion locks). So the prices for even the semi-intact pieces are high. Not to mention that almost all the Turkish ones are re-decorated (there's apparently an entire workshop in the Grand Bazaar dedicated to redecorating old muskets, even today) to the point that they lose all historical authenticity.

That particular one you mentioned sold for a whopping 1900 dollars, by the way. I think it's insane, but that's just how the market is. Guns that would be in the 2000-3000 dollar range in the US go upwards of 10000 dollars here.

And as for your suggestion, unfortunately not. Importation of firearms is extremely restricted, even if they are muzzleloaders (unless if you have friends in customs, but I'm not going to take that risk with international cargo).

OK. That explanation gives me a better view of your situation. Most unfortunate.
I can remember back in the 1980's and earlier that dealers in antique guns would only take the Eastern type guns in on consignment. While the Eastern blades and armour always received higher prices, there was just not that many collectors for the guns. Maybe collectors thought them too odd looking (?). LOL
The gun you posted above that sold for $1900.00 is incredible. I would have thought due to it's condition, it would not sell at a U.S. auction for more than about $300.00USD. But then, today, it might fetch $400/500USD (?) But in just the last 3-4 years these Eastern type guns are bringing higher prices than I would have suspected. Right now, I'm following two different auctions with Algerian guns just to see what they sell for. You can PM me for the Links if you like.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

On a gun of that quality the 'bone' would more likley be ivory . I don't know where you are located but seems the whole world is beset with anti gun left wing prats poseing as governments . We have them In NZ as well .
Regards Rudyard

Rudyard: They keep trying here in the U.S. as well. Fortunately there's always been too much resistance.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Hello Rick,

I know the prices are ridiculous compared to the US, but honestly it seems like all the good pieces were exported to Europe and/or the US and now what we're left with is, well, either attic dwellers in terrible condition (pitted and/or rusted beyond all recognition), or the victim of last century's Bubba (shishanas with the barrels chopped to convert to breechloading, or with crudely made nipples welded on along with cheap or even homemade back-action percussion locks). So the prices for even the semi-intact pieces are high. Not to mention that almost all the Turkish ones are re-decorated (there's apparently an entire workshop in the Grand Bazaar dedicated to redecorating old muskets, even today) to the point that they lose all historical authenticity.

That particular one you mentioned sold for a whopping 1900 dollars, by the way. I think it's insane, but that's just how the market is. Guns that would be in the 2000-3000 dollar range in the US go upwards of 10000 dollars here.

And as for your suggestion, unfortunately not. Importation of firearms is extremely restricted, even if they are muzzleloaders (unless if you have friends in customs, but I'm not going to take that risk with international cargo).

The prices were also ridiculous when I was living in Russia. We have it very good in the USA regarding gun rights and prices! Had to pass up many pieces because the price and condition were in no way close to matching, but that's what you deal with this far east.

I did manage to pick up a Turkish lock at auction while back in the US visiting family.

 

[Rudyard]

Looks like a rabbit on the rear of the Spring . Odd in Islamic art but could be unplanned I used to find these locks on R vous Blankets & One gentleman at a Friendship shoot sold a bunch of locks to Phil Ackerman .But he kept one of these locks giving it to me saying "I like your demeanor ". ( When you got charm that happens ) & I put it to good use , Very kind of him I thought .
Regards Rudyard

 

[toot]

I tought I saw a WRABBIT!

 

[rickystl]

The prices were also ridiculous when I was living in Russia. We have it very good in the USA regarding gun rights and prices! Had to pass up many pieces because the price and condition were in no way close to matching, but that's what you deal with this far east.

I did manage to pick up a Turkish lock at auction while back in the US visiting family.
View attachment 185161

Merry Christmas to ALL.

One of the mysteries of the Ottoman/Turkish made locks is why the mainsprings were made so overly strong ? I've never understood this. Fortunately, both my shishana and tufuk guns have typical Balkan style locks, which have strong mainsprings (like most miquelets) but still very usable and function-able. It's almost as if they were built to make sure they would produce a spark even with a dull flint.
Anyway, here are a couple more Turkish made locks.

Rick

 

[JBrandon]

Strong springs for poor flints - we need some experiments. The Ottoman empire did have some flint industries as well as flourishing gun makers. Albanian flint knappers were mentioned (fire-flints) by Evans in 1890s. A village in W Turkey called Cakmak (meaning fire striker) made flints for tribulum threshing sledges into the 1960s, and there were others that didn't get reported. Surely they also made gunflints but I haven't been able to find any records that I can access. There is good quality flint/chert suitable here and there across Turkey and E Europe. But perhaps they lacked the market/distribution systems or scale of production that made the French and British gunflints so common all over the world, and Ottoman troops might have had to fall back on whatever hard rocks they could make work.

 

[cyten]

Strong springs for poor flints - we need some experiments. The Ottoman empire did have some flint industries as well as flourishing gun makers. Albanian flint knappers were mentioned (fire-flints) by Evans in 1890s. A village in W Turkey called Cakmak (meaning fire striker) made flints for tribulum threshing sledges into the 1960s, and there were others that didn't get reported. Surely they also made gunflints but I haven't been able to find any records that I can access. There is good quality flint/chert suitable here and there across Turkey and E Europe. But perhaps they lacked the market/distribution systems or scale of production that made the French and British gunflints so common all over the world, and Ottoman troops might have had to fall back on whatever hard rocks they could make work.

Great info! If I recall, in Elgood's book on the subject he mentions that the flints were of low quality in Anatolia, hence the heavy springs. Will take a look when I get back home next week.

Merry Christmas to ALL.

One of the mysteries of the Ottoman/Turkish made locks is why the mainsprings were made so overly strong ? I've never understood this. Fortunately, both my shishana and tufuk guns have typical Balkan style locks, which have strong mainsprings (like most miquelets) but still very usable and function-able. It's almost as if they were built to make sure they would produce a spark even with a dull flint.
Anyway, here are a couple more Turkish made locks.

RickView attachment 185275

View attachment 185276

Rick, are the back of the cocks of thes squared or rounded? I've been noticing a lot of the Turkish styled locks in Bulgaria tend to be squared off instead of rounded, and the smiths who are making reproductions are following that form.

 

[cyten]

Just got the chance to take a photo in the backyard

 

[Rudyard]

View attachment 185567

Just got the chance to take a photo in the backyard

Plain as a pike staff & therin lies its great charm . More very often being less There's no' gingerbread' on that gun .
Regards Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Strong springs for poor flints - we need some experiments. The Ottoman empire did have some flint industries as well as flourishing gun makers. Albanian flint knappers were mentioned (fire-flints) by Evans in 1890s. A village in W Turkey called Cakmak (meaning fire striker) made flints for tribulum threshing sledges into the 1960s, and there were others that didn't get reported. Surely they also made gunflints but I haven't been able to find any records that I can access. There is good quality flint/chert suitable here and there across Turkey and E Europe. But perhaps they lacked the market/distribution systems or scale of production that made the French and British gunflints so common all over the world, and Ottoman troops might have had to fall back on whatever hard rocks they could make work.

"Surely they also made gunflints but I haven't been able to find any records that I can access. There is good quality flint/chert suitable here and there across Turkey and E Europe. "

That's the problem trying to research gun making and use in general in this part of the World during the 19th Century and earlier. Besides the research from Elgood and Tirri (and small pieces of information, European diaries, etc.) there is little actual recorded documentation. The locals just didn't write anything down.
Flints: I'm still inclined to agree with Elgood ref the strength of the mainsprings being made to counter what's said to be lesser quality flint from the Region in general. Some areas didn't even have flint mines to work from. But I suspect that flint, like everything else was often traded across borders. (Imagine what a barrel of pre-cut black English flints would have been worth in the Region back then).

While the mainsprings of miquelet locks tend to be stronger in general to flintlocks, the mainsprings from the Eastern made locks tend to be even stronger, with the Turkish made miquelets stronger still. By the 19th Century the Spanish (and Italian) miquelet locks reach a high degree of refinement. But the Eastern locks were comparatively still a bit crude in their functioning. Interesting: I've never seen an Eastern miquelet lock with a broken mainspring. I've seen 2/3 with a weak mainspring. But it was likely from someone in the 20th Century letting the hammer sit on half or full cock for some 50+ years.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Great info! If I recall, in Elgood's book on the subject he mentions that the flints were of low quality in Anatolia, hence the heavy springs. Will take a look when I get back home next week.


Rick, are the back of the cocks of thes squared or rounded? I've been noticing a lot of the Turkish styled locks in Bulgaria tend to be squared off instead of rounded, and the smiths who are making reproductions are following that form.

The back of these two I posted are square. Same with other Turkish made locks I've examined. Other Eastern locks vary from round and square.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Great info! If I recall, in Elgood's book on the subject he mentions that the flints were of low quality in Anatolia, hence the heavy springs. Will take a look when I get back home next week.


Rick, are the back of the cocks of thes squared or rounded? I've been noticing a lot of the Turkish styled locks in Bulgaria tend to be squared off instead of rounded, and the smiths who are making reproductions are following that form.

For what it's worth non I ever owned had squared back cocks just 7 as I recall And one on a complete rifle was very small but with its unusually elaborate sights I assess it was a target rifle firing some sort of Picket bullet since the possible increments far out ranged any normal elevation .The smaller lock causing less jar & a plan followed by some English target rifles .
. At least with Snap Matchlocks we don't have to consider jarring .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

"Surely they also made gunflints but I haven't been able to find any records that I can access. There is good quality flint/chert suitable here and there across Turkey and E Europe. "

That's the problem trying to research gun making and use in general in this part of the World during the 19th Century and earlier. Besides the research from Elgood and Tirri (and small pieces of information, European diaries, etc.) there is little actual recorded documentation. The locals just didn't write anything down.
Flints: I'm still inclined to agree with Elgood ref the strength of the mainsprings being made to counter what's said to be lesser quality flint from the Region in general. Some areas didn't even have flint mines to work from. But I suspect that flint, like everything else was often traded across borders. (Imagine what a barrel of pre-cut black English flints would have been worth in the Region back then).

While the mainsprings of miquelet locks tend to be stronger in general to flintlocks, the mainsprings from the Eastern made locks tend to be even stronger, with the Turkish made miquelets stronger still. By the 19th Century the Spanish (and Italian) miquelet locks reach a high degree of refinement. But the Eastern locks were comparatively still a bit crude in their functioning. Interesting: I've never seen an Eastern miquelet lock with a broken mainspring. I've seen 2/3 with a weak mainspring. But it was likely from someone in the 20th Century letting the hammer sit on half or full cock for some 50+ years.

Rick

The very first Miguelet I used wedded to a Turkish barrel recently broke its M spring . just cracked not in two but needs a new spring . I really wish we had a Hoyt like barrel liner so few survive with acceptable bores . However I hunted with some any way . just get closer . . Elgood I have , Tirri is new to me , But have Wiggington's work on the arms of Tipo Sultan but that's off topic. if Ime dieing to knock one up of Tipoos self pan opening locked matchlocks wedded as they were to short Omani barrels . Though he describes them as Indian they are dated 1797 /8 but likley old barrels repurposed .I think the Gold?? poincion's have been robbed from these barrels too I never heard of any that survived with any .All very curious but would we want it any other way ?.
Regards long winded Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

View attachment 185567

Just got the chance to take a photo in the backyard

Nice photo Cyten. An Ottoman Shishana and an Albanian Rat-Tail pistol.

Another thought on those Eastern miquelet mainsprings being extra strong: By the early 19th century European military muskets were made at various arsenals with much more lock parts commonality. So a flintlock with a broken mainspring could be easily changed in the field with a mainspring vise and a screwdriver. Whereas the miquelet locks required about half the lock being dis-assembled and required a different style mainspring vise that varied in size depending on the lock size. More of a job for a gunsmith. And the Eastern miquelet locks being built at maybe 100 different small shops in the Region would likely show up with small differences in mainsprings, making it somewhat pointless to carry a spare mainspring. Of course, I'm just speculating here. But it appears the Eastern lock makers did not want to chance a broken mainspring making the gun useless.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

https://www.abebooks.com/Islamic-We...lCXJ95iuhcPR9FwcnwwARO71pKsk8hyBoCS68QAvD_BwE

 

[cyten]

Plain as a pike staff & therin lies its great charm . More very often being less There's no' gingerbread' on that gun .
Regards Rudyard

Part of what drew me to it in the first place, I was so accustomed to seeing very decorated rifles. Of course, I'm hoping to add one of them to my collection as well.

The back of these two I posted are square. Same with other Turkish made locks I've examined. Other Eastern locks vary from round and square.

Rick

That's interesting, mine are rounded. Each region has their own unique twist on the lock construction, even if following a certain form.

For what it's worth non I ever owned had squared back cocks just 7 as I recall And one on a complete rifle was very small but with its unusually elaborate sights I assess it was a target rifle firing some sort of Picket bullet since the possible increments far out ranged any normal elevation .The smaller lock causing less jar & a plan followed by some English target rifles .
. At least with Snap Matchlocks we don't have to consider jarring .
Regards Rudyard

I've seen many in museums with sights that must be for well over 2000 meters. I've only come across a very few original bullet molds (which look very similar to the 15-16th century German molds), they have all been for round ball, though this is just my very limited experience, of course there may be some conical, picket, nessler, etc style bullet molds for them.

Of interest, here is a poor quality photo of a Kariophili/Rašak on display in Bulgaria that has a western flintlock styled cock

HERE is a video clip from the History Channel's "Pawn Stars" that features Ottoman Blunderbuss/Knee Pistol/Tromblon/Dag however you want to call them, one of which is dated 1854. Take it as pure entertainment value.

 

[Barud]

That's the problem trying to research gun making and use in general in this part of the World during the 19th Century and earlier. Besides the research from Elgood and Tirri (and small pieces of information, European diaries, etc.) there is little actual recorded documentation. The locals just didn't write anything down.

I suspect that there's heaps of info just waiting to get deciphered in the Turkish state and library archives (and probably other private collections too), but translation is a tedious task and Turkish academia isn't exactly the gold standard. Then there's the problem of publications of Turkish academia not being translated to the English. Military history in Turkish academia is going through a renaissance of sorts, yet that knowledge seems not to have trickled down from academic circles yet.

I've seen many in museums with sights that must be for well over 2000 meters. I've only come across a very few original bullet molds (which look very similar to the 15-16th century German molds), they have all been for round ball, though this is just my very limited experience, of course there may be some conical, picket, nessler, etc style bullet molds for them.

Ottoman traveler Evliya Çelebi speaks of capstan-styled balls and some sort of bolo bullet with a wire nestled inside, which expands when fired out and can apparently cut off limbs. He's a treasure trove of information, but loves his hyperbole, and it's hard to tell when he's outright making up tall tales and when he's not.

 

[rickystl]

Cyten: Your last Post #237: I wanted plainer examples to make into shooters. That way, I didn't have to worry about loosing the tiny decorations while at the gun range. Or messing with an extra nice original collectors item.
Yes, that cock on the Kariophili/Rasak does look a little like a traditional flintlock. Every once in a while you find a hint of Western influence with these guns. Actually, about 10% of the Greek Kariophili I've seen have more traditional flintlocks. While the Rasak look very similar they often have a slight more upward curve at their butt stocks. It's thought that many of these were made in Southern Albania versus Greece. Of course, there was much cross-culture between the two.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

I suspect that there's heaps of info just waiting to get deciphered in the Turkish state and library archives (and probably other private collections too), but translation is a tedious task and Turkish academia isn't exactly the gold standard. Then there's the problem of publications of Turkish academia not being translated to the English. Military history in Turkish academia is going through a renaissance of sorts, yet that knowledge seems not to have trickled down from academic circles yet.


Ottoman traveler Evliya Çelebi speaks of capstan-styled balls and some sort of bolo bullet with a wire nestled inside, which expands when fired out and can apparently cut off limbs. He's a treasure trove of information, but loves his hyperbole, and it's hard to tell when he's outright making up tall tales and when he's not.

Sort of mini chain shot ? But its straining the elastic in practical department but still could be so ,But could hardly extend the long range aspect .as a picket bullet might the tradition of long range archery has more relevance Ide assess . All good stuff I looked up Tirri tempting but pretty dear I think.
Regards Rudyard