Ottoman Guns

[Sam squanch]

If even has the screws and escutcheons in the grips! Trying to make it look like a later revolver while stuffed in a sash?

 

[hectorintca]

A happy Independence Day to our American members! I wanted to share a recent acquisition. An 1846 dated Greek Kariophili/Kariofili/Karanfilka with a 31 inch barrel. It is in need of some cleaning up and TLC but that is part of the fun (and the price reflected that).

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Check out that non-concentric bore!

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Pretty darn cool..

 

[cyten]

Congratulations !! Nice find. Besides a couple barrel bands missing, it looks complete. But it looks like there are two bands to make copies from. Appears to have a late style flintlock with a roller on the frizzen. Interesting that these Karoiphili's show up with about 50/50 with some using flintlocks, and others using the Balkan style miquelet locks. Also note the fancy trigger. A common characteristic with Greek gun builders. After cleaning, you may find on the top, rear portion of the barrel, an engraving depicting a man's face. Also seems to be common on these Karoiphili's. Never knew whether it is supposed to represent the builder or the owner (?) Looks like it just needs a comprehensive cleaning. Nice project.
BARREL: Hmmm. Looks like maybe the muzzle was damaged at some point during the period and crudely cut back. Possibly the top portion of the muzzle was hammered flat to avoid a sharp edge after the cutting (?)
If, down the road, you decide you want to shoot the gun....this barrel looks like it's a job for Superman !! (Bobby Hoyt) LOL But it can be done. Bobby can even add length to a barrel. He did this once for me.

Rick

Thanks Rick, I concur with your take on the barrel, may have to finally give my business to Mr. Hoyt. And of course, gorgeous Rasak you have!

Pretty darn cool..

Thank you!

While searching for something else, I re-discovered a pistol I had forgotten about. Don't think I've ever posted it here. Collectors believe this style of pistol originates from Montenegro. It's general build is similar to other Ottoman/Balkan flint pistols of the period. The exception is the grip on the stock. Seems to have been unique to this area. Even their later BPC unmentionable revolvers carried over using this grip design. The lock appears to be one of the common export locks of the period. Funny how some gun designs became popular with locals of one area, but not adopted by the other surrounding areas.

Rick

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That is super interesting! That grip is 100% Gasser and could definitely be from Montenegro (where owning a Gasser was a legal requirement at one point)

 

[rickystl]

Yes !!! The old Gasser revolvers. Those still fetch a decent sum at auctions.

An interesting feature of the Rasak musket I just posted:

The builder of this gun did a first rate job. The stock shows excellent carving, inletting, and iron mounts application. Overall, a very high quality build. What's curious, is the lack of any engraving or decoration on the iron mounts. Does not seem to match the fancy, barrel with high quality chisel work on the breech and muzzle. That's one of the reasons I believe the barrel is older than the rest of the gun. Here are a few more photos. Notice how well the iron hardware is mounted to the stock. No gaps anywhere.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Yes !!! The old Gasser revolvers. Those still fetch a decent sum at auctions.

An interesting feature of the Rasak musket I just posted:

The builder of this gun did a first rate job. The stock shows excellent carving, inletting, and iron mounts application. Overall, a very high quality build. What's curious, is the lack of any engraving or decoration on the iron mounts. Does not seem to match the fancy, barrel with high quality chisel work on the breech and muzzle. That's one of the reasons I believe the barrel is older than the rest of the gun. Here are a few more photos. Notice how well the iron hardware is mounted to the stock. No gaps anywhere.

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Do you have an idea of what the Arabic inscription might say? Arabic script looks beautiful as decoration on the barrel!

 

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Yes !!! The old Gasser revolvers. Those still fetch a decent sum at auctions.

An interesting feature of the Rasak musket I just posted:

The builder of this gun did a first rate job. The stock shows excellent carving, inletting, and iron mounts application. Overall, a very high quality build. What's curious, is the lack of any engraving or decoration on the iron mounts. Does not seem to match the fancy, barrel with high quality chisel work on the breech and muzzle. That's one of the reasons I believe the barrel is older than the rest of the gun. Here are a few more photos. Notice how well the iron hardware is mounted to the stock. No gaps anywhere.

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And all by hand. Amazing the talent of some craftsmen!! And no machines either.

 

[TobJohn]

And all by hand. Amazing the talent of some craftsmen!! And no machines either.

That's one of the interesting dilemmas with replicas. On one hand, power tools are cheating, but on the other, almost none of us have a lifetime of guild experience and a bunch of apprentices to help.

 

[TobJohn]

Do you have an idea of what the Arabic inscription might say? Arabic script looks beautiful as decoration on the barrel!

I remembered a friend of mine reads Arabic, so I asked him to translate.
He said it was in Ottoman, so it was hard to read, but the last word on top of the barrel is “snakes” and the first word is related to “work/worker”.

 

[Sam squanch]

Maybe his co workers were snakes…..mine are….

 

[TobJohn]

Maybe his co workers were snakes…..mine are….

I don’t think I would want to have a meeting with an Ottoman HR department…

 

[rickystl]

Do you have an idea of what the Arabic inscription might say? Arabic script looks beautiful as decoration on the barrel!

Both the barrel itself and the inscriptions are Ottoman Turkish.

Barrel: "Work of Saban"

Barrel Tang: "The Owner and Possessor Topcu Hoca" Topcu meaning Artillery Officer. Hoca meaning Master.

I believe the barrel could be as much as 100 years older than the rest of the gun. Turkish barrels were held in high regard throughout the region. And the re-use of an older barrel was fairly common.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Both the barrel itself and the inscriptions are Ottoman Turkish.

Barrel: "Work of Saban"

Barrel Tang: "The Owner and Possessor Topcu Hoca" Topcu meaning Artillery Officer. Hoca meaning Master.

I believe the barrel could be as much as 100 years older than the rest of the gun. Turkish barrels were held in high regard throughout the region. And the re-use of an older barrel was fairly common.

Rick

Ah, so "work" is part of the inscription!

 

[rickystl]

Ah, so "work" is part of the inscription!

One could speculate that the inscriptions represented a time when this barrel was mounted to another, earlier gun, since the barrel is likely older than the rest of the gun. But in this case, I don't think so. The gold overlay for the inscriptions are in almost perfect condition - like the rest of the gun, showing very little usage. Even the bore is in great condition. The lock shows only light usage, and functions perfectly. So, my guess is the inscriptions were added once this gun was completed.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

One could speculate that the inscriptions represented a time when this barrel was mounted to another, earlier gun, since the barrel is likely older than the rest of the gun. But in this case, I don't think so. The gold overlay for the inscriptions are in almost perfect condition - like the rest of the gun, showing very little usage. Even the bore is in great condition. The lock shows only light usage, and functions perfectly. So, my guess is the inscriptions were added once this gun was completed.

Rick

That is a very interesting detail!

 

[cyten]

Rick, the fact that the screw is drilled through the inscription leads me to believe the barrel was decorated as such before it was mounted to this (beautiful) Rasak.
Here is a similar gun pictured in a photo taken in Bucharest, Romania in 1868

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

Thanks for the photo. A good one to add to my library.

RE The Barrel and Breech Plug Screw: Good point. And you could be right. Don't know. The decoration on the top of the barrel certainly looks Ottoman/Turkish. But again, that's not much of a surprise. Ottoman made barrels were held in high regard and sold/traded everywhere. It would be difficult to believe the translation of the inscriptions would refer to the barrel only. That wouldn't make much sense. I am convinced the barrel is older than the rest of the gun. But the bore condition is similar to the condition of the rest of the gun. So, if the barrel was previously mounted to a different gun, that gun must have also had very little usage. The frizzen on this gun looks like it's never been struck with a flint.

I also have an Albanian Tanchika in similar condition. Maybe I should re-post it here ?

It's amazing to find any of these Eastern guns in an almost unused condition.

Rick

 

[cyten]

The barrel could be a captured trophy. I have yet to see a Rasak/Kariophili in the hands of a Turk. They are always pictured with Slavs or Greeks. Not to say an Artillery Officer couldn't be a Slav or Greek, Janissarys were exclusively Christian Albanian/Slav/Greeks who were taken as children converted to Islam. So another case could be a family heirloom where the rest of the gun was damaged? As to its immaculate condition, Artillery Officers probably didn't have to fire their guns very often, just give orders to fire the artillery. Just a guess.

You should absolutely post the Tanchica!

I recently won one at auction and the seller disappeared, got a refund but no gun.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Wow ... this post keeps getting better and BETTER with the info and pictures from Cyten & Ricky!

That Rasak from Southern Albania is amazeballs!

 

[rickystl]

The barrel could be a captured trophy. I have yet to see a Rasak/Kariophili in the hands of a Turk. They are always pictured with Slavs or Greeks. Not to say an Artillery Officer couldn't be a Slav or Greek, Janissarys were exclusively Christian Albanian/Slav/Greeks who were taken as children converted to Islam. So another case could be a family heirloom where the rest of the gun was damaged? As to its immaculate condition, Artillery Officers probably didn't have to fire their guns very often, just give orders to fire the artillery. Just a guess.

You should absolutely post the Tanchica!

I recently won one at auction and the seller disappeared, got a refund but no gun.
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Hi Cyten

Some more good points. All we can do is speculate. But I guess that's part of the fun. We'll likely never know for sure.

DARN. That is a really nice looking Tanchica. (I'll use your spelling LOL). Wonder what happened to the seller ? Occasionally, something strange will happen at an auction. Maybe at the end of the auction for this gun, but before the end of the entire auction, the seller decided he could get more money than the hammer price, and simply took his gun and disappeared ? Maybe to rendezvous with a sneaky buyer later ? Sorry to hear this. Usually, the seller signs an agreement with the auction house. They will notice him if he ever tries to return and sell something else.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Here is the mentioned Tanchica that is in similar condition to the Rasak posted above.

Back Story: I bought this from a gun dealer in the state of Alabama of all places. I needed another Tanchica like I needed a hole in my head. LOL (Now have 4). But I couldn't pass this one up. The dealer had the gun in on consignment from a local family. It was brought to the dealer by the wife after her husband passed away. The dealer mainly dealt in modern type guns. The dealer said the woman had no history of the gun other than it had been in her family for several generations. The family was of Greek heritage. But that's all I know.

This Albanian Tanchica musket is what some collectors refer to as a real screamer. It is of very high quality. The entire gun chiseled and engraved iron and silver. And just enough wood showing to make a wonderful contrast. The typical Balkan style miquelet lock is in perfect working order. I can't tell that there was ever any powder in the priming pan. The frizzen looks like it's never been struck with a flint. The bore just had dirt/dust from sitting upright for many years. The front of the frizzen bears the double-headed eagle which represents the Albanian coat of arms. Unfortunately, I can't find any other stamps or marks. A bit unusual in this case. But the overall workmanship is outstanding. And again, it's rare to find Eastern market guns like this in seemingly unused condition with only some handling marks.
Going picture-heavy here so you can see the fine details. Imagine what it would cost today to have a gun made like this with all the engraving and silver work.

Rick