Ottoman Guns

[Rudyard]

' Dubble WOW ' Very nice pieces . What objections could there be to making such guns Sam ? it isn't a repressed anti gun state like us in' The West' seem to suffer ,in my case South Eastern' West' I bet he's not licensed to death and administered by people who don't know what there talking about. like one gunsmith who registering a double barrel shotgun got some dumb girl on the phone demanding to know what capacity magazine did it have .And another a man taking the date on a lock as the Serial number which considering the numbers of them so dated( a Snider) didn't seem to dawn on the Useless bod doing the recording .it was pointed out but no he just went with that . Trust modern Govts?." let me see, "Now how far can I throw the Taj Mahal ? .
"That nonesence aside great work his Roskies look good , Bobbies sizes are close but differ but such ones would suite my new ones . Love the three Carbines Tufanchas ??Ile get the number of what sizes I need to restore the old one & let you know.
Regards Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Thanks again Cyten. That Bolyia is a knock-out job. Just fabulous. Wiping the drawl off my mouth. LOL

Rick

 

[Philip Chua]

I met with another builder in his village who graciously took the time to talk to me about his craft. He mostly works with new made barrels and locks and stocks them up in the original style, but can use original hardware if the customer provides it.
He said it takes roughly 4 months to finish a Shishane and 6 months for a Boyliya (due to the intricate abalone and mother of pearl decorations)
He makes rozetki as well, a little different than the way Bobi showed me he does.
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He had three Shishane on hand that he had built this year. Told me he has made more than 50 Shishane total and around 20 Boyliya. The prices for these are $1700 for the bottom “working man’s gun” with no decorations and the other two were $2200. All stocked in Walnut and using new smoothbore barrels with traditional sights and new made locks. I was told they had a friend in the USA that they had shipped guns to before and it shouldn’t be a problem if I sent anyone his way interested in them.
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Here is a Boyliya he had made but sold the day before I had arrived.
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What incredible muskets!!! I am actually ordering a lock from Turkey presently. Do you have any idea what they call the little brass white and black inlays? Wasn't sure how to search for them

Dr Phil

 

[bobi13]

What incredible muskets!!! I am actually ordering a lock from Turkey presently. Do you have any idea what they call the little brass white and black inlays? Wasn't sure how to search for them

Dr Phil

If you ask about the ones in the photo, they say rosettes

 

[Rudyard]

What incredible muskets!!! I am actually ordering a lock from Turkey presently. Do you have any idea what they call the little brass white and black inlays? Wasn't sure how to search for them

Dr Phil

Dear Phil You don't let the grass grow under your feet . Lock from Turkey Why not ! ,I think the little inlets are called Roskies or close I want some too. Follow Cyten he's onto them .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Philip Chua]

Dear Phil You don't let the grass grow under your feet . Lock from Turkey Why not ! ,I think the little inlets are called Roskies or close I want some too. Follow Cyten he's onto them .
Regards Rudyard

Well to be fair it takes a bit for these parts to arrive and then they can happily sit whilst I whittle away. On my English lock project I’m considering cutting a second stock out as I’m not 100% happy how my shape and the lock are going to orient: I needed to leave myself more room. The upside is I have a gorgeous bit of curly cherry that I acquired over the weekend and a month membership at the wood tech center. The ash stock will still be used but I may use a different lock.

 

[Rudyard]

Well to be fair it takes a bit for these parts to arrive and then they can happily sit whilst I whittle away. On my English lock project I’m considering cutting a second stock out as I’m not 100% happy how my shape and the lock are going to orient: I needed to leave myself more room. The upside is I have a gorgeous bit of curly cherry that I acquired over the weekend and a month membership at the wood tech center. The ash stock will still be used but I may use a different lock.

Bobbi knows he makes them And does good work .
Rudyard

 

[Barud]

I was in Turky 1966 but all I can recall is Teshicush i dirum (Thankyou ?) & Birak ( Flag ?)
Regards Rudyard

I reckon those are "teşekkür ederim" and "bayrak".

The short barrels Ive called a 'Tuffancha' might be incorrect but of the. mix I gathered ex Mjr Noel Corry haul had a fair portion of short barrels .

I think that is "tabanca", which means pistol today, but centuries ago meant palm/fist/punch and (I think) later on meant short rifle before evolving into pistol.

What incredible muskets!!! I am actually ordering a lock from Turkey presently. Do you have any idea what they call the little brass white and black inlays? Wasn't sure how to search for them

Dr Phil

Where in Turkey did you order your lock? If I could find a source of locks I could chase some more projects. Thus far I only have one Algerian gun and it's been a tiresome journey to find a proper restorator since I'm worried they might do more damage to the (seemingly well-storied) parts while attempting to restore them.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Barud

Contact Cyten here on the Forum. I believe he knows who makes good replica locks in Turkey. But I believe they only make the Ottoman/Turkish style miquelet lock (?) But they may make others.
Contact Flint62 here on the Forum. There is a lock maker in Europe that makes replicas of a couple different Balkan style locks, among others.
What do you need for the Algerian gun ? Any photos ?

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

I reckon those are "teşekkür ederim" and "bayrak".



I think that is "tabanca", which means pistol today, but centuries ago meant palm/fist/punch and (I think) later on meant short rifle before evolving into pistol.



Where in Turkey did you order your lock? If I could find a source of locks I could chase some more projects. Thus far I only have one Algerian gun and it's been a tiresome journey to find a proper restorator since I'm worried they might do more damage to the (seemingly well-storied) parts while attempting to restore them.

Dear Barud ,Well 'close if no cigar 'not bad from when I was 21 . Not sure where I got the' Tufancha ' but more' close if no cigar'. Re Algerian gun my lock once just a floating lock wedded to the remains of the stock & me using a suitable barrel Ex the Major Cory haul .It had no battery or its bridle. I had to make those parts . I think I show a Photo in the first ' Ottoman Arms' Post along with the Turkish & the Moroccan Kabyle it being all restored bits unloved by non but me . That dosn't make me' Queen of the May' but might suggest I have a few clues in the restoration department .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Barud]

Hi Barud

Contact Cyten here on the Forum. I believe he knows who makes good replica locks in Turkey. But I believe they only make the Ottoman/Turkish style miquelet lock (?) But they may make others.
Contact Flint62 here on the Forum. There is a lock maker in Europe that makes replicas of a couple different Balkan style locks, among others.
What do you need for the Algerian gun ? Any photos ?

Rick

For the Algerian gun I need new barrel bands, bone inlay and restoration of the stock (the forestock's gone as is the ramrod, and there are a few cracks in it here and there). I live in a very dense neighborhood and can't exactly do the work myself (which is delicate anyway, I wouldn't want to risk the gun's storied life with my tampering). I did get the number of someone who fixes antiques but they told me that they specialize more in silverware. Maybe I'll manage to convince the man somehow.

The lock thankfully works without issue. But the crazy in me tries to convince me that I should remove the lock and use it as a base for a what-if Oriental wunderwaffe with a tip-up breechloader design a la Kammerlader. If I had a separate lock of its own, I could probably chase after such silliness with more abandon.

Dear Barud ,Well 'close if no cigar 'not bad from when I was 21 . Not sure where I got the' Tufancha ' but more' close if no cigar'. Re Algerian gun my lock once just a floating lock wedded to the remains of the stock & me using a suitable barrel Ex the Major Cory haul .It had no battery or its bridle. I had to make those parts . I think I show a Photo in the first ' Ottoman Arms' Post along with the Turkish & the Moroccan Kabyle it being all restored bits unloved by non but me . That dosn't make me' Queen of the May' but might suggest I have a few clues in the restoration department .
Regards Rudyard

Oh, I don't mean to be impolite. Phonetics can be iffy, and I do enjoy your stories and restoration work.

 

[Rudyard]

For the Algerian gun I need new barrel bands, bone inlay and restoration of the stock (the forestock's gone as is the ramrod, and there are a few cracks in it here and there). I live in a very dense neighborhood and can't exactly do the work myself (which is delicate anyway, I wouldn't want to risk the gun's storied life with my tampering). I did get the number of someone who fixes antiques but they told me that they specialize more in silverware. Maybe I'll manage to convince the man somehow.

The lock thankfully works without issue. But the crazy in me tries to convince me that I should remove the lock and use it as a base for a what-if Oriental wunderwaffe with a tip-up breechloader design a la Kammerlader. If I had a separate lock of its own, I could probably chase after such silliness with more abandon.



Oh, I don't mean to be impolite. Phonetics can be iffy, and I do enjoy your stories and restoration work.

Dear Barud .Thank you for the compliment , I've got a Kamer ladder not sure it would work. But I did make a flintlock 50 cal on the' Turn Off' principal .Yes it shot harder but it was so fiddly to reload in bush conditions, So I stuck with my muzzle loaders. On Palmerstone North range I shot a 13 shot Target (MLAIC conditions ) under 20 minuets well within time but its all prepped in a range match .in the event they where all shot inside 17 minets .
At 50 yards Off hand it shot fine enough to hunt with which is all Ide expect in the conditions prevalent in these forests . The only other BL/ML was an adapted 310 brl 'got up' (Stocked from a river snag/drift wood on the banks of the Whakatāne river !) on the rudest 3/8"WW 'Le Chaumet 'principal on a diet of SG buck . or Ide push them down through the barrel to create 'Mechanically fitting projectiles ' which I carried it (& later a 45 Wheellock) to knock off bunnies ect for tucker) & it all took down so,s it didn't look like a gun in some very remote regions of Back blocks Australia since my' job' was to seek old machinery . I shared "Banjo"Patterson's love of ' the Bush' If I hadn't got married I think Ide be' Whaleing 'on the interior rivers most likley steam propelled adaption of an old compressor A' whaler' is just a swaggy who lives on the rivers a Bit like' Possom' who may be familiar to the Murray river region readers .However I digress a failing of mine
.Regards Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Barud: When you say "Algerian" gun, do you mean one that looks like this:

Rick

 

[Barud]

Dear Barud .Thank you for the compliment , I've got a Kamer ladder not sure it would work. But I did make a flintlock 50 cal on the' Turn Off' principal .Yes it shot harder but it was so fiddly to reload in bush conditions, So I stuck with my muzzle loaders. On Palmerstone North range I shot a 13 shot Target (MLAIC conditions ) under 20 minuets well within time but its all prepped in a range match .in the event they where all shot inside 17 minets .

Stephen Wardlaw of CTMuzzleloaders built one that (as far as I know) functioned without issue when properly built, but in pistol form. Of course, I haven't even taken measurements yet, let alone actually seek a way to produce such a barrel-breech assembly, but it's fun to dream.

Barud: When you say "Algerian" gun, do you mean one that looks like this:

Rick

View attachment 336885View attachment 336886View attachment 336887

Yes, exactly. I think I posted it sometime earlier in this thread. Of course, it's in nowhere as good condition as yours.

 

[Philip Chua]

I reckon those are "teşekkür ederim" and "bayrak".



I think that is "tabanca", which means pistol today, but centuries ago meant palm/fist/punch and (I think) later on meant short rifle before evolving into pistol.



Where in Turkey did you order your lock? If I could find a source of locks I could chase some more projects. Thus far I only have one Algerian gun and it's been a tiresome journey to find a proper restorator since I'm worried they might do more damage to the (seemingly well-storied) parts while attempting to restore them.

Pererey Handicrafts. Here’s a video on his Miquelete lock.

 

[Philip Chua]

Pererey Handicrafts. Here’s a video on his Miquelete lock. Ihttps://youtu.be/73XWbsXYPyA?si=PmesX2WSdnnf9Cjj

There is another YouTuber Femboy Musketeer who has a couple of pieces from him. We have all kinds in our hobby! Not bad videos - the workmanship looks good.

 

[Rudyard]

Stephen Wardlaw of CTMuzzleloaders built one that (as far as I know) functioned without issue when properly built, but in pistol form. Of course, I haven't even taken measurements yet, let alone actually seek a way to produce such a barrel-breech assembly, but it's fun to dream.

Yes, exactly. I think I posted it sometime earlier in this thread. Of course, it's in nowhere as good condition as yours.

Dear Barud ,All I had was a much abused backend of a stock missing all but a few rude bone inlays all you really then need is a long Oct barrel taper not uniform they tend to be long but 40" is probably offered You have the hard bit the lock and bit of stock .The fore stock often a scarfed join anyway the patience to fit umpteen barrel bands" Piece of Kayak !" Who ever sell barrels will sell plugs Getz used to come with the plug in , No trigger guard (Algerians don't want to live forever ) & there isn't any real Need of a trigger guard. You could do the whole gun with just a B & Decker Work mate anyway. Kindly butchers will sell or give you bones a bit of wooden dowel , any hardware shop sells dowels about 3/8" pick a strait one then brass tube to go on the muzzle end of the about 10 '' thin pipe kneading pressed into fancy full designs . Eminently' Dooable ' the one I did was just that its on the' First Ottoman Guns 'Post which sort of set this fascinating topic in motion . Have at it !

A wise gunmaker Tony Hawkins once told me" The only limitations in life are the ones you except "He was a Clark but he wanted to be an engineer but no firm would take him on" Too old for an apprentice" .So He bought & wrecked machinery and by the' El Muncho Gruncho school of Engineering' became a brilliant Gun & general Engineer .I worked for him doing Development work, he paid me in barrels & one rifle a 451' Full Match' ML I made Shot a 98 at The MLAGB Short range champs at Bisley by the Late Gordon Gerrard .

On a similar note I was once hitching just north of Alice Springs when a gentleman in a VW stops he was a qualified Teacher heading to Darwin as his studies where C/O of South Aus & Darwin that at the time was administered by S Aus since the first wire ran to Darwin and it was' A territory ' still mostly Cattle Stations & Bush. Anyway Ide Overlanded out & poked about in West Africa Which he had visions of doing & later did out & back .So I became by Fate his life changing' Guru '. He became a renown Artistic Blacksmith which his academic Father hadn't steered him to be . So much hangs on fate .
Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

REF: Post #734

Hi Barud. OK. The reason I wanted to confirm the Algerian gun you have, is that the fore end of the stocks were actually built to about 2/3rds the length towards the muzzle. They were made that way. See photo. So, what you might think is a broken forearm is not. Unless there is further damage going back towards the breech. If I were having the gun restored, someone like Bobi would be the best choice.

Where do live ? I think you mentioned it once, but I forgot.

Rick

 

[Barud]

Pererey Handicrafts. Here’s a video on his Miquelete lock.

Much appreciated. I know and very much appreciate the work Hamit is doing, but I didn't know that he actually had those for sale (admittedly I haven't contacted him in a while, my fault).

Hi Barud. OK. The reason I wanted to confirm the Algerian gun you have, is that the fore end of the stocks were actually built to about 2/3rds the length towards the muzzle. They were made that way. See photo. So, what you might think is a broken forearm is not. Unless there is further damage going back towards the breech. If I were having the gun restored, someone like Bobi would be the best choice.

Where do live ? I think you mentioned it once, but I forgot.

Rick

Oh I know, I know. It's not that the forestock doesn't reach to the muzzle of the gun, it very much is broken and cracked. I believe there are photos of it earlier in the thread.

It would be an honor to have someone as experienced and as knowledged as Bobi restore it, but I can't trust international cargo with it, both of our countries being iffy and vague when it comes to muzzleloading firearms. To get an "unmentionable" repeating shotgun can be less than a day's work depending on where you are, yet a permit for a muzzleloader has many more hoops since it's either a cultural artifact or simply an unregistered firearm according to law. More experienced people than I have alternately suggested registering the thing or never telling the authorities that I have such an item in the first place, since I have heard that certain corrupt elements in them either abuse their power or use criminal connections to have some registered and inspected collections confiscated or burglarized.

I live in Istanbul. Chaotic place, very crowded. Not exactly the best if you have an interest in matters related to gunpowder.

Dear Barud ,All I had was a much abused backend of a stock missing all but a few rude bone inlays all you really then need is a long Oct barrel taper not uniform they tend to be long but 40" is probably offered You have the hard bit the lock and bit of stock .The fore stock often a scarfed join anyway the patience to fit umpteen barrel bands" Piece of Kayak !" Who ever sell barrels will sell plugs Getz used to come with the plug in , No trigger guard (Algerians don't want to live forever ) & there isn't any real Need of a trigger guard. You could do the whole gun with just a B & Decker Work mate anyway. Kindly butchers will sell or give you bones a bit of wooden dowel , any hardware shop sells dowels about 3/8" pick a strait one then brass tube to go on the muzzle end of the about 10 '' thin pipe kneading pressed into fancy full designs . Eminently' Dooable ' the one I did was just that its on the' First Ottoman Guns 'Post which sort of set this fascinating topic in motion . Have at it !

A wise gunmaker Tony Hawkins once told me" The only limitations in life are the ones you except "He was a Clark but he wanted to be an engineer but no firm would take him on" Too old for an apprentice" .So He bought & wrecked machinery and by the' El Muncho Gruncho school of Engineering' became a brilliant Gun & general Engineer .I worked for him doing Development work, he paid me in barrels & one rifle a 451' Full Match' ML I made Shot a 98 at The MLAGB Short range champs at Bisley by the Late Gordon Gerrard .

On a similar note I was once hitching just north of Alice Springs when a gentleman in a VW stops he was a qualified Teacher heading to Darwin as his studies where C/O of South Aus & Darwin that at the time was administered by S Aus since the first wire ran to Darwin and it was' A territory ' still mostly Cattle Stations & Bush. Anyway Ide Overlanded out & poked about in West Africa Which he had visions of doing & later did out & back .So I became by Fate his life changing' Guru '. He became a renown Artistic Blacksmith which his academic Father hadn't steered him to be . So much hangs on fate .
Rudyard

Oh it certainly is doable, I just don't have enough space in the house (well, room, rather). And hauling the old boy around is hard in Istanbul when you don't have an automobile.

But the thread can use something a bit more interesting than my doom and gloom - here's a late 17th-early 18th century Ottoman firearm with an extended triggerguard, not unlike Western hunting pieces of the era. Hopefully nobody's posted it earlier.

 

[Rudyard]

Much appreciated. I know and very much appreciate the work Hamit is doing, but I didn't know that he actually had those for sale (admittedly I haven't contacted him in a while, my fault).


Oh I know, I know. It's not that the forestock doesn't reach to the muzzle of the gun, it very much is broken and cracked. I believe there are photos of it earlier in the thread.

It would be an honor to have someone as experienced and as knowledged as Bobi restore it, but I can't trust international cargo with it, both of our countries being iffy and vague when it comes to muzzleloading firearms. To get an "unmentionable" repeating shotgun can be less than a day's work depending on where you are, yet a permit for a muzzleloader has many more hoops since it's either a cultural artifact or simply an unregistered firearm according to law. More experienced people than I have alternately suggested registering the thing or never telling the authorities that I have such an item in the first place, since I have heard that certain corrupt elements in them either abuse their power or use criminal connections to have some registered and inspected collections confiscated or burglarized.

I live in Istanbul. Chaotic place, very crowded. Not exactly the best if you have an interest in matters related to gunpowder.



Oh it certainly is doable, I just don't have enough space in the house (well, room, rather). And hauling the old boy around is hard in Istanbul when you don't have an automobile.

But the thread can use something a bit more interesting than my doom and gloom - here's a late 17th-early 18th century Ottoman firearm with an extended triggerguard, not unlike Western hunting pieces of the era. Hopefully nobody's posted it earlier.

The Trigger guard & the Sling button suggest addition's by more western Europe user & the powder horn is very Moroccan, Some Horn but I think there locally made, or sold possible imported the all metal these are imported from France probably ?. What is interesting is there are different designs left & right . sort of to suit the occasion ?.

All I recall was a hippy flop house not far from the Blue Mosque I went into it a brilliant building magnificent .
Regards Rudyard