Over powder materials

[paulvallandigham]

I use #5 shot on pheasants because of the retained energy at 40 yds. Its sufficient to kill pheasants at that range, where #6 shot usually won't, unless you put a lot of pellets on the bird, or get a lucky pellet in its head. Do that with #5 shot and it will fall like it was hit with an axe!

I don't share Jim's opinion about hens vs. cocks. I think you can run into tough birds of both sexes, and its where they are hit, and with what that determines if they fall. For most shooters, even those who shoot a lot of clay targets, they are much more successful killing birds if they hit them inside 40 yds. Better yet, inside 30 yds. But its not because the shooters can't shoot straight, or hit the birds. It usually relates to the size of the shot they choose to shoot. I used #6 shot for a number of years and was not happy with its performance at 40 yds, or further. Yes, I killed some birds out there, but more often I had cripples. When I turned to #5 shot- I had to find a source, but took the time to find a jobber who had a whole pallet of it in his warehouse- the change in what happened in the field became immedicately apparent. If I can put my pattern on anyhting inside 45 yds, its coming down. I pass on shots when birds are out to 50 yds and beyond, as its just punching holes in the air, and wasting powder to try. I do the same with my modern guns choked full, as well as my percussion shotgun with open cylinder, except with my ML shotgun, I pass on shots beyond 40 yds, and rarely even try to hit anything that is more than 35 yds out.

Try using a larger shot size on pheasants. I think you will be pleasued with the performance. Take a look at the tables in the Lyman shotshell reloading Manual and check the down range velocities and energy of the various sizes of shot. Its quite educational, particularly for black powder shooters. Then re-read V.M. Starr's article on ML shotguns, and his recommendations about shot choices.
[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/starr.html[/url]

I think that will help you make some changes in the loads you use when hunting birds.

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

Well, you sold me. I've been shooting #6 because I could get it easily. I've got a really good local gunshop, and if they don't have something can always order it. I'll order a bag of #5 and see how it performs.

I do get a lot of longer shots. The majority of my shots are under 40 yards, but I have enough at that distance to make it worth trying different shot. How does #5 perform at closer ranges, say 20-35 yards. My fowler is a single barreled flinter, thus I don't have the option of loading a #6 in the right barrel and #5 in the left. My first shot might be out at 40 yards, and my next shot might be at 25 yards. Consequently, my loading tubes will all be the same shot size.

Perhaps I find hens easier to put down because the ranges are much closer. Generally, a hen won't budge until the dog just about pounces on it, whereas a rooster will run a dog. I don't recall ever shooting a hen beyond 30 yards, and that usally required giving the girl a good head start.

 

[Wehrmacht]

OK, I'm learning some things here from you and Paul.......

Questions: By over shot "wads" I'm sure that you are saying over shot "cards" Got to be the same thing,just called differently in different areas I'm sure.Little thin cardboard round paper things.

Since you lube the edges of the over shot cards (not the over powder cards) I guess that you can tell a difference in lubed vs. not lubed. It just seems to me that with two thin cards there would be so little surface area it wouldn't matter,but guess it does :hmm:

How much jug choke is in your barrel? I've got a fowler being built right now (talked to the builder today) that I'll have time to work with before spring gobbler season. It has a 51 inch barrel, and I had Lowell Tennyson jug choke it thirty thousandsth. Is 40 yards with #5 shot reasonable to expect?

Roy in Dahlonega (I'm from Union County :winking: ).....

You can buy felt wads from TOW and a number of other places from .32cal right up through 16ga excepting only .40cal and I don't know why this caliber isn't available, but it isn't or at least I don't know where to find them and wish that I did. I've got two .40cal rifles. Felt wads most definately improve accuracy with a PRB, but as Paul mentions the wads have got to go down evenly or you're subject to get flyers.

Don't know what the oversize diameter is for various calibers,but I know this....you cannot-or at least I cannot-make a .45cal felt wad go down the bore of my .40cals evenly. It just won't work for me,flyer after flyer after flyer, though I know that there's someone here on the Forum that does make it work....just don't remember who. I have a .60cal straight rifled piece and I can easily get 20ga felt wads to evenly go down the bore. I would suspect that the felt wads are maybe about two cals.larger than the bore they're made for....but that's a guess.

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

I suppose you could call overshot cards, wads. They are very thin, perhaps 1/8" or 1/16" inch thick, and are always bright white.

The lube does seem to keep the fouling soft, especially in cold weather. However since the lube is only applied to the edges, they aren't messy to handle, and the mink oil lube is very light. If the cards were dipped in a hot lube, the lube would add weight and push through the shot column on discharge. The only purpose of the lube is to make loading easier.

I have a full jug choked 42" barrel, and am consistently putting birds down at over 40 yards with #6 shot. I think by switching to #5's I should get cleaner kills at that distance.

I'm a little self conscious admitting to the following, because if I read it rather than wrote it, I wouldn't believe it. I would guess the writer mis-stated or mis-measured the distance, but here is the simple truth of it. Last March I shot a crow over 50 yards out and probably 30 feet up with my fowler, using 3 drams of powder and 1 1/4 ounces of shot. I did not kill him outright, but brought him down. Perhaps if I had been shooting #5's he would have dropped down dead.

I teach kids to shoot trap with flint, and it's very rare to have a girl not break clays by the third attempt. Generally, when I have a young shooter with a centerfire gun, I emphasize the need to react quickly and get on the clay fast. With the fowler, I always have them hold the gun (cocked) at the hip, when they call "pull". The length of the gun surprises them initially, but simply by bringing the gun to the shoulder they will get on the clay,shoot, and break the bird several yards beyond modern trapshooters comfortable distance.

Most modern gun coaches, will encourage the shooter to bring the gun to the shoulder before calling pull. Generally what happens when they try this with a long barreled gun is that they swing past the clay and miss. By keeping the gun at the hip, they simply bring the fowler to the eye, and don't overswing.

Modern shooters "know better" never follow my advice and miss. If an experienced trap shooter doesn't break his second clay, he generally hands the gun back to me, as though I had asked him to break clays by throwing knives at it.

At a shoot last summer, our final event was a trap shoot. Since only one other person brought a muzzleloading shotgun, we loaded for each participant and had them fire our guns. The range master, wanted to try my gun and was a very inexperienced trap shooter. I explained what he should do, and when he called pull, he took his time. The bird was over the fifty yard line when he fired, and broke it into several small pieces.
He basically shot the fowler as if it were a rifle, and "aimed" it.

What everyone found remarkable was the distance at which the clay was broken. I know it's not scientific, but several pieces at 50 yards would indicate he hit the clay with more than a few random pellets.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Jim, so that we are on the same page, the overshot cards, or wafers, I refer to are only 1/10th" thick. They have a hard, shiny surface on both sides, and are sold in boxes of 1000.

As to #5 shot, it should handle well in your full choke barrel for the long shots, and group as well. At shorter ranges, the choke in your gun will produce a tight pattern and you will have to shoot a little ahead of the bird, so that just the one side of the pattern hits its head and neck, if you don't want to mangle the whole bird. If you do hit the bird too hard, you can always cut the meat up into bite-sized pieces and make pheasant stir-fry with it. That is a great way to serve pheasant to people who have not eaten wild game before.

As to your shooters who are new to shooting a long barreled flintlock, make sure they are keeping their feet under their shoulders, as if they were going to dribble a basketball, or box. The movement that works for those girls comes from the feet up. Modern shooters get into a bad habit of spreading their feet out past their shoulders, as if they are shooting a rifle off-hand, instead of pointing a shotgun, and all the movement for these guys is from the waist up. As soon as the shoulders and waste are aligned the upper body stops moving, and they will shoot below and behind the target evey time. Make sure they move their weight onto the forward hip when they mount the gun.

The girls are using a technique of pointing the target with their eyes while they mount the gun. The gun is fired as soon as it touches the shoulder, because the eye has already determined the proper " Lead ". The body follows through normally after the shot because the eye is focused on the target, and never on the front sight on the shotgun. At most, the sight is in the lower peripheral vision of the shooter.

The way the men are shooting is how trap shooters have been taught, and required to shoot under American rules for years. Mount the gun to your shoulder, THEN call for the target. swing on it, and fire. Sporting Clays has opened the door for the style of shooting you are teaching, if people will only listen.

As usual, most men need to be smacked up side the head with a 4 x 4 before they will learn anything. Been there, done that, too. Finally decided it was easier to listen and learn if my head was not sore from being smacked by that post. Funny thing, I have learned so much more, and saved myself so much grief and frustration listening since I learned that lesson. I musta been hit too many itmes, do ya think? :rotf:

 

[Roy]

:v I was just wondering because I was making a wad cutter. I knew you could buy all of the different sizes, but no matter who I bought them from they wouldn't be here tomorrow... er today lol. :grin:

 

[Wehrmacht]

Lord, but am I learning some valuable intelligence here :bow: Unfortunately I've got to rush outta here and go move a logger out of the mud so he can get some wood to the mill,otherwise I'd be out back right now with some shot cards going at it!! Soon as I get back,and soon as the rain stops,I'm outside with my 16ga double :hatsoff: :thumbsup: :bow:

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

The wads formerly came in boxes, but are now packaged in plastic bags. The bags read Circle Fly 12 Gauge Overshot Wads. They are the thinest of the wads available, and are stiff shiny white paper. I purchased my last 1000 from Track of the Wolf.

Interestingly enough, I stir fry strips from close shot birds too and love it.

 

[54mountain]

My bore mics out at .593 and I just use a 5/8 hole punch. .625 they're a bit tight but once you get them started they go down easy, just mic your bore and buy the next closest hole punch and you should be ok.

 

[Roy]

Thanks :v the wads, and wad cutter are made. :thumbsup: Going to see how the fancy fowler shoots this evening and then take it to a woods walk this weekend. :thumbsup:

 

[rusty]

Hi 54M,what is cellotex.thanks

 

[arcticap]

This is supposed to be the best place to buy felt, and many BP shooters buy from them: [url] www.durofelt.com[/url]