I am going to try and roll some papers with a 7/16 dowel for the 1860 I have on its way to the house. I am going to use the conical bullet from the mold that lee makes for percussion revolves. My question is what shape and dimensions should these papers be?
Paper cartridge dimensions
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The width of the paper at curved bottom will be 2.38 in. long aprox. 1 and 1/2 in. tall take your dowel rod and taper one end of it about 3/4 in. making a cone shape with the smaller end being about .34 in dia. wrap the rounded edge of paper around top of cone and glue lightly make small cup load with 22 grs of FFF powder.
check out the pamplet from Dixie Gun Works
Self consuming paper cartridges
for the percussion revolver
by W.J. Kirst
Pioneer press
its about 4 or 5 bucks
check out the pamplet from Dixie Gun Works
Self consuming paper cartridges
for the percussion revolver
by W.J. Kirst
Pioneer press
its about 4 or 5 bucks
ian45662,
making 'self consuming paper cartridges' definitely seems like an interesting project and the way to go for anyone who wants a quicker way to reload (provided you don't mind spending an afternoon making 'em).. i had a link to a video showing how it's done by someone named "bjornpanzer" but the sound wasn't so good.
see if this still works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L1-SXoswJM
if not, do a search by his name to find it.
:thumbsup: ~dg~
making 'self consuming paper cartridges' definitely seems like an interesting project and the way to go for anyone who wants a quicker way to reload (provided you don't mind spending an afternoon making 'em).. i had a link to a video showing how it's done by someone named "bjornpanzer" but the sound wasn't so good.
see if this still works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L1-SXoswJM
if not, do a search by his name to find it.
:thumbsup: ~dg~
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Metalshaper
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sometimes, even when using nitrated cigarette papers.. the 'cartridge' doesn't burn away.
Once, for an upcoming shoot, I loaded and then shot a lot of 'cartridges' Slowly but surely,I noticed the loads were creeping towards the front of the cylinder
Stripped the gun and found the previous 4 go arounds, where stacked up in the cylinder. Each one fire forming to the previous shell and the cylider walls!!
was kind of a pain to clear!!
I specifically bought nitrated papers?? but I'm gonna have to work on making sure they are fully nitrated, before I go at it again!!
Just my experience??
Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
Once, for an upcoming shoot, I loaded and then shot a lot of 'cartridges' Slowly but surely,I noticed the loads were creeping towards the front of the cylinder
Stripped the gun and found the previous 4 go arounds, where stacked up in the cylinder. Each one fire forming to the previous shell and the cylider walls!!was kind of a pain to clear!!
I specifically bought nitrated papers?? but I'm gonna have to work on making sure they are fully nitrated, before I go at it again!!
Just my experience??
Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
That can be a common danger to using paper cartridges.
You are lucky the paper wasn't still smoldering when you reloaded the chambers.
You are lucky the paper wasn't still smoldering when you reloaded the chambers.
Metalshaper
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Zonie said:
Zonie,
You are Right!! :wink: the 'cartridges' were all a bit charred on the mouth but other than that were intact.. and dang near welded to each other and the cylinder walls.
I wasn't exactly loading it for a gun battle :v just plinking at an all weekend shooting event. Lots of time between loadings.
I work in a water quality lab, and got the OK from my super. to mix up some acids to try my own nitrating. the normal mix makes full out guncotton/flash paper. Not exactly what I want!
so we're gonna try a dilution to get a nice full char/burn, without adding a whole lot to the propellant equation.. Some days it's FUN to go to work!! :haha:
Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
About the easiest way of making nitrated paper I know of is to just soak the paper in a super-saturated solution of saltpeter and then let it dry.
(For the guy who doesn't know what "super-saturated" means, it means the water cannot hold any more of the solid so some crystals will not dissolve.)
(For the guy who doesn't know what "super-saturated" means, it means the water cannot hold any more of the solid so some crystals will not dissolve.)
Harry Dursema
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From what I understand it is best to use 19 to 24 pound 100% rag drawing paper and soak it in hot water saturated with salt peter aka Potassium Nitrate once thoroughly dry you cut it to use in making cartridges. To glue the paper cartridges it is best to use Water Glass aka Sodium Silicate as an adhesive because like the nitrated paper it burns completely away without ash. contact cement and other glues leaves a gummy residue.
From what I understand that is how it was done in the Civil War by both sides.
I have ordered the above paper and Sodium Silicate so will in good time know how well this works out.
From what I understand that is how it was done in the Civil War by both sides.
I have ordered the above paper and Sodium Silicate so will in good time know how well this works out.
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Whom did you order it from? :thumbsup:
Harry Dursema
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I ordered both on Ebay
the Sodium Silicate here http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sodium-Sil...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2acee9f7#shId
You will have to search for the rag paper, try at large art supply stores, I bought my supply on Ebay but one shelf was all she had.
the Sodium Silicate here http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sodium-Sil...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2acee9f7#shId
You will have to search for the rag paper, try at large art supply stores, I bought my supply on Ebay but one shelf was all she had.
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Thank You, Sir. :hatsoff:
For a paper pattern, I like an isoceles trapazoid; that is, a four sized "rectangle" but the top of the rectangle is longer than the bottom. When you roll this into a tube it will form a taper. Nww, when you originally cut this trapezoid you also include a little square or "trapdoor" along the bottom base. After the tobe is formed this trap door is folded over the back or bottom and crunched around the outside of the tube and glued in place. This leaves a single layer of paper that the percussion cap has to blast through- to date- I have never had a cap not ignite such a case.
Residue- a drawback to these rounds. I check the chambers between each re-loading. Big safety measure- it should always be done.
Residue- a drawback to these rounds. I check the chambers between each re-loading. Big safety measure- it should always be done.
Bear Rider
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I made a short handle by jamming several nuts on the threads of a bore mop. I swab each fired chamber with the dampened mop prior to reloading. I don't know if it actually does anything, but it makes me feel better.
My experience has been that there is always a little paper residue on these loads and swabbing is a must for safety as far as I am concerned.
On the combustible cartridges. If you are carrying a percussion gun while hunting, etc and you load up at the day's start with powder (flask/measure), then the chambers ought to be okay and you ought to be able to load quickly with the combustible cartridges but once you start using those cartridges you'll have the residue (could hold an ember) problem and a lot more attention to the chambers is required. Here's how I see matters: the combustibles are fun to experiement with at the range but loading powder is really a better, more accurate method. The other application is carrying combustible cartridges while on the trail because an Altoid can full of them is all that is required, eliinating having to carry a flask, measure, ball bag, wads, etc.
On the combustible cartridges. If you are carrying a percussion gun while hunting, etc and you load up at the day's start with powder (flask/measure), then the chambers ought to be okay and you ought to be able to load quickly with the combustible cartridges but once you start using those cartridges you'll have the residue (could hold an ember) problem and a lot more attention to the chambers is required. Here's how I see matters: the combustibles are fun to experiement with at the range but loading powder is really a better, more accurate method. The other application is carrying combustible cartridges while on the trail because an Altoid can full of them is all that is required, eliinating having to carry a flask, measure, ball bag, wads, etc.
Harry Dursema
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Very good points including the "ember" caution!
Here is an interesting video on a way to form the paper cartridge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=um0UEnDU6rA&NR=1
I have also considered make nitrated paper measured black powder sacks, push the sack into the cylinder bore then ram home the ball.
It would speed up loading some but not as much as when the ball is in the paper cartridge like in the video.
Thanks for the input
Here is an interesting video on a way to form the paper cartridge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=um0UEnDU6rA&NR=1
I have also considered make nitrated paper measured black powder sacks, push the sack into the cylinder bore then ram home the ball.
It would speed up loading some but not as much as when the ball is in the paper cartridge like in the video.
Thanks for the input
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Harry Dursema
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At long last I have everything needed to do the job!
Thanks for the advice, I made up a large peanut butter jar (glass) full of super-saturated solution of saltpeter but found as soon as it cools down the saltpeter crystals start forming. That is OK because as soon as it is warmed up again and shaken they mostly redissolve.
I soaked 6 sheets of cloth paper in the super saturated potassium nitrate solution and it is right now drying.
Once dried I will be using the isosceles trapezoid shaped paper form suggested above By Mr. Crockett and perhaps a .45 acp case to form the paper cartridge like in the video I provided above.
More when I have more.
The Arivacain
Thanks for the advice, I made up a large peanut butter jar (glass) full of super-saturated solution of saltpeter but found as soon as it cools down the saltpeter crystals start forming. That is OK because as soon as it is warmed up again and shaken they mostly redissolve.
I soaked 6 sheets of cloth paper in the super saturated potassium nitrate solution and it is right now drying.
Once dried I will be using the isosceles trapezoid shaped paper form suggested above By Mr. Crockett and perhaps a .45 acp case to form the paper cartridge like in the video I provided above.
More when I have more.
The Arivacain
Bear Rider
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I've found that by wrapping six cartridges in aluminum foil, I can create a fairly sturdy packet that travels well in a belt pouch. Several of these packets, my short-handled swab, and a capper fit nicely in the pouch and set me up for a day's shooting.
Harry Dursema
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Good suggestion Bear!
The shooting of the paper cartridges went well, sort of.
The latest style of paper cartridge made from nitrated onion skin airmail paper from the 60s shot well and left very little if any paper in the cylinder chambers but the way I sized them in diameter made them very hard to load into the cylinder.
I used a .38 special brass to form them and the gun is a .44 so I thought it would be fine, but Noooo! lol
The earlier ones that were made out of nitrated heaver 19 to 20 pound rag paper (to withstand handling) with thin onion skin paper on the percussion cap end left a lot of paper clutter that did not burn up in the cylinder to the point that it made reloading almost imposable, to say nothing of dangerous if there was still a ember of burning paper which I made sure there was not.
The earliest ones made of all nitrated 19-20 pound rag paper all hang fired where the percussion cap went of then a half second later the charge went off, sort of like shooting a flint lock without the flash in front of your face. One would not go off even after three new percussion caps, so I fed a very small amount of black power into the nipple and tried again and it went off with about a one second hang fire. Had I remembered to bring my nipple wrench I would have removed the nipple and punched a hole in the end of the cartridge.
Conclusion, they need to be smaller in diameter and as short as possible with the 20 grains of black powder,because of the brass pistole frame, I need to use the thinner onion skin paper after I nitrate it and to thin out the Sodium Silicate 40% solution by about 25% more water which I did with the last version that left very little if any clutter in the cylinder and yet still glued well.
It was time well spent and for sure a learning experiment! The nitrated onion skin paper glued with the diluted Sodium Silicate 40% solution held up well. I carried two around in my pocket for days, dropped them a time or two and they held up fine.
I just finished washing the pistole in the sink with hot water and soap, rinsing and drying it all out and re-oiling it.
The photo is the gun and the had make lined elk hide holster.
The shooting of the paper cartridges went well, sort of.
The latest style of paper cartridge made from nitrated onion skin airmail paper from the 60s shot well and left very little if any paper in the cylinder chambers but the way I sized them in diameter made them very hard to load into the cylinder.
I used a .38 special brass to form them and the gun is a .44 so I thought it would be fine, but Noooo! lol
The earlier ones that were made out of nitrated heaver 19 to 20 pound rag paper (to withstand handling) with thin onion skin paper on the percussion cap end left a lot of paper clutter that did not burn up in the cylinder to the point that it made reloading almost imposable, to say nothing of dangerous if there was still a ember of burning paper which I made sure there was not.
The earliest ones made of all nitrated 19-20 pound rag paper all hang fired where the percussion cap went of then a half second later the charge went off, sort of like shooting a flint lock without the flash in front of your face. One would not go off even after three new percussion caps, so I fed a very small amount of black power into the nipple and tried again and it went off with about a one second hang fire. Had I remembered to bring my nipple wrench I would have removed the nipple and punched a hole in the end of the cartridge.
Conclusion, they need to be smaller in diameter and as short as possible with the 20 grains of black powder,because of the brass pistole frame, I need to use the thinner onion skin paper after I nitrate it and to thin out the Sodium Silicate 40% solution by about 25% more water which I did with the last version that left very little if any clutter in the cylinder and yet still glued well.
It was time well spent and for sure a learning experiment! The nitrated onion skin paper glued with the diluted Sodium Silicate 40% solution held up well. I carried two around in my pocket for days, dropped them a time or two and they held up fine.
I just finished washing the pistole in the sink with hot water and soap, rinsing and drying it all out and re-oiling it.
The photo is the gun and the had make lined elk hide holster.
