Paper cartridge dimensions

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Oh and as far as using the isosceles trapezoid shaped paper with a tab on top to seal the percussion cap end as suggested I tried that and it worked ok but I went on to using rectangle shaped just wide enough for a slight overlap for the glue with the tap at the top.
That used less paper and was easer to cut out.
Shrugs

PaperCartridge11182012.jpg
 
Arivacain said:
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Conclusion, they need to be smaller in diameter and as short as possible with the 20 grains of black powder,because of the brass pistole frame, I need to use the thinner onion skin paper after I nitrate it and to thin out the Sodium Silicate 40% solution by about 25% more water which I did with the last version that left very little if any clutter in the cylinder and yet still glued well.

You might want to make them longer and more tapered -- long enough to nearly touch the chamber bottom as the ball is placed on top. This serves two purposes.

First, it's easier to insert that skinny, tapered cartridge in that little round hole.

Second, when you ram the ball down, the cartridge splits, exposing powder directly to the cap.

For a jig, chuck a length of 1/2 dowel in a drill and use sandpaper to make a long taper. Then glue up several paper cartridges, trying different spots on the taper until you found one that is right, and score a line on the dowel at that point. Then make your trapazoid pattern to fit that dowel.
 
Good suggestion!
And it would only take a very short time to do so.
The light weight paper eliminated the hang fire problem.
 
I will give that a try,
I had a problem getting the formed paper off a wooden dowel because of the SS glue which is why I tried the .38 special brass.

OK I get it the shape of the trapezoid makes forming the taper easer!!!!

I found that a q-tip with the cotton removed makes a good brush for the SS glue, it is inexpensive and disposable.
Thanks
 
have you tried rolling papers?

I roll them around a Bic Mark It Fine Point Permanat Marker. It is the perfect tool for the job.
There is a sweet spot to roll them out on and they are perfect for my .44

The ball goes in the large mouth side just far enough to fold the paper over. I fill it up from the bottom and then just twist the end. When I go to shoot I tear off the tiny twist on the end carefully and put the cartridge in the chamber. This way there is no paper against the nipple.

Kinda nice to veg out and make cartidges for later on shooting.

The rolling papers will leave some paper in the chambers after fired. So that has to be watched.
 
From a historical standpoint I'll add some things.
Colt first tried to get some combustible cartridges going in the late 1830's while still in Patterson, NJ and these were for his revolving rifles, not pistols. This type of ammunition was used for all sorts of percussion firearms and it was made by a variety of U.S. and European makers. Colt really got underway about 1855 and used German tin foil until 1858 and then switched from the tin foil to paper soaked in nitrates and sulpheric acid- so that it would burn up. Dewitt Sage made millions of similar rounds during the Civil war but used a skin (actual intestine) sack or case that theoretically would "Crisp" and get blown out the barrel but the Sage cartridges had more residue and after about 40 rounds the residue was so much that another round could not be loaded fully into the chamber.
There was a lot of variation with this type of ammunition but I'd say the Navy rounds held about 15 gr of fffg and the Army about 17 gr. Why the moderate powder charges?? On the navy the lengths of the cylinders on the Colt, Remington, and Whitney revolvers varied, the Whitney being the shortest and the ammunition had to be suitable for any of the three. The moderate charges also made for a shorter cartridge so that it could still be loaded even with some fouling in the chambers.There was other ammunition made for both the Savage and Starr revolvers as well as the Sharps rifles/carbines and other Civil War period arms.
I think Sage used a mold to form his gut cases and from my research they were not treated with any nitrates. Colt used paper after 1858 and since the paper was not water proof Colt had the wood boxes (about the size of a deck of cards) wrapped in paper and shellaced to make them water proof. Colt used little wood dowels that were tapered to form the paper sacks/cases and the sides of the paper were overlapped and sealed with water proof glue.
Balls and conicals were loaded but the balls were very early and not common. Bullet shapes varied but the final shape had a rebated heel at the base. Some had grease grooves. There was variation between manufacturers.
The tin foil was very good and Colt found that the only tin that really worked well was from Germany (Prussia). Apparently it disintegrated from the exposion and the fouling was minimum. The tin foil was waterproof so these cartridges didn't need the wood boxes and they were normally sold 10 or 12 to a "packet" which was a soft paper/cardboard type envelope. The Sage skin cases were also very water proof, one military test soaked them for 4 hours, and they all still fired. Incidentally, with all combustible ammunition it was not required to break the case to expose the powder, the blast of the percussion cap was supposed to be strong enough to rupture the case and explode the contents. On a modern combustible- if you are having a time lag there is too much paper at the back of the case or residue is blocking the path of the percussion cap.
I experimented with very thin foil from candy wrappers and the straight line blast of the percussion cap gives 100% ignition. The foil wouldn't hold an ember and it really isn't a bad choice except the residue is excessive and after only 3 or 4 rounds I couldn't get another cartridge fully seated in the chamber. The Colt foil was much better.
I use cigarette paper BUT with the knowledge this paper doesn't have the Colt type treatment and doesn't disintegrate upon explosion. The big deal here is residue that can hold an ember. That's why the paper was treated whereas the skin only "crisped" and the tin foil needed no treatment.
In any event, I'll make combustibles for the range but for the field the better solution is to make 12 little paper tubes and paper caps (an empty pistol case and cork stop would also work) A powder charge goes into each. These along with wads, bullets and caps all can fit nicely in an altoids can and you have plenty of ammunition for carrying in the field. You take the top off each tube and pour in the charge (keep the tubes and reuse them), then the wad and the ball and cap.
Finally, the whole area of combustible ammunition is a part of fire arm collecting and quite a few books have been written on the subject. Some collectors are interested in the variation on labels, etc, In any event it is a well researched area and much is known. I don't know if anyone ever figured out a grand total made during the Civil war. Colt made about 5 million and so did Sage. There were a lot of other manufacturers as well and of course that is only what the North used. The Richmond arsenal made them as well- I might guess about 20 million total but that's just a guess. There weren't many made after the war but there must have been an emorous surplus available. I think I read that Abilene, KS told Hickok they would pay for his practice ammunition and he shot about 6,000 cartridges. The city fathers weren't happy with the bill.
 
I think tearing off the tip of the paper and pouring in the powder and using the pager as a wad is the way it was done with rifles but I have found rolling papers don't tend to hold up to handling.
I am watching Mankind, the story of us" on History channel and working on making the tapered trapezoid form work.
 
That's why I make little foil "bricks" containing six cartridges. They're surprisingly sturdy. A half-dozen of these bricks in the shooting pouch or coat pocket, and you're probably good for the day.
 
I should have also mentioned that there was yet another type patented by a Doctor by the name Bartholow inwhich he mixed the lose powder with a type of glue to make a "solid cartridge" sort of like the Pyrodex pellets and then he glued that to a conical. Initially the pellet was waterproofed but then he switched to a glue that was water proof. I'm not certain how much of this he sold to the government during the Civil War but one order for just the 44 Army cartridges was 1.4 million. The container was a plain cardboard box like the kind used for matches- an inside part slides out and the cartridges were all in together- no seperate chambers. This was similar to the cardboard boxes made at the Richmond Arsenal.
One would think that the Bartholow style would have been best but the glue actually left more residue that Colt's paper style. The glue also tended to impact the burn rate of the powder and some Army tests indicated the accuracy wasn't as good- although further tests seem to contradict the earlier tests.
In short, IMHO the Colt paper cartridge packed 6 to a small wood box with a wire "rip string" to instantly open the box and access the ammunition- that was the best of the combustible cartridges ever made. They seemed to leave less residue than any other manufacturer and the quality was always the best. Colt products always cost a little more but the quality was usually very good for whatever he made.
On this type of ammunition used in long arms. it seems incredible that a percussion cap could blast through the nipple into a drum, then make a 90 degree turn into the chamber and rupture the case on this type ammunition but apparently such was the case. Combustible ammunition in muskets however was rare IMHO. I think most of the long arm ammunition was used in revolving type rifles and Sharps and similar arms, millions of combustibles were made for those types of long arms. Again, it seems that the military was the prime user of this ammunition and I think the surplus left after the war was then used to a lesser extent in the west.
Finally, it pays to remember that most of the "shootist" in the west preferred to load from a flask and use a round ball. More powder, hence greater force, could be obtained and the accuracy was usually better- the conicals could twist as they were being rammed into the chambers.
 
From what I've read about them, yes, the Sharps breech block cut off the end of the cartridge as it was closed.

I've also read that the troops were taught how to hold the gun during this step because if it was held incorrectly, loose powder could work its way down inside the receiver.

The breeches did leak when the gun fired and this loose powder could cause some bad burns to the face making the gun somewhat unpopular with the troops.
 
I had a replica for a while, but didn't know if it was like all the rest. I didn't keep it because a Sharps is neither fish nor fowl. It doesn't qualify as a muzzle loader for either hunting or competition, and it won't shoot neck and neck with a modern rifle.

This one had a loose breech plate, and would scorch your arm if you shot it offhand with your arm under the receiver.
 
That is a great idea!
Today I test fired a few different tapered paper cartages made using the trapezoid shape and they did fit in the cylinder a lot easer but I still had a few hang fires, but when I fired the spare cylinder that was loaded the traditional way a couple of them also hang fired.
At that point I asked my "friend" who gave me a half pound of pryodex, because at the time I was out of BP and it is about a 70 mile drive each way to buy some in Tucson, how old is the pyrodex he gave me? He said he bought it in Ohio about 20 to 30 years ago or so. What? I asked was it opened in Ohio you know where unlike Arizona they have humidity 24/7/365? "Oh yes I used it from that bottle way back then". Well duh! No ^#%*&( wonder I was having hang fires, I suppose I am lucky it fired at all!!
Lesson learned!
When I have 12 or so cartages made I put them is a Altoids tin and carry them around in my pocket for a day or more then check them for powder leakage and to see how well they hold up.
Once again the nitrated old airmail onion skin paper held up well despite being lite paper and it holds the nitrate better than the other 100%rag paper did and left no paper in the cylinder.
I am really enjoying this project and wish to thank all for the suggestions and pointers!
 
Even with "real" powder, you may have trouble with hangfires, depending upon the caps you are using. I found that CCI caps were not as reliable as the Remingtons. This fact and reading that I've done has convinced me that the Remingtons are hotter than the CCI.
 
I use French Light or Zig Zag 1-1/4" cigarette papers. I glue with spit and make bottom smaller than the top so they'll fit easily into the chambers. Sometimes I even put a lubed wad under the ball and let them sit for two months and the paper didn't tear. If loading light, I use corn meal as a filler. To save time the paper is not cut but the excess is twisted over the ball. The ball is enclosed.

Seat the round in the chamber, pull off the twisted portion covering the ball and seat as normal. The more powder, the less paper leftover, careful not to overlap the paper on the bottom or it may take two caps to fire the round off.
 
The youtube demo by "bjornpanzer" is good as far as showing you how to make a cartridge but his safety awareness is atrocious. A burning candle and an open can of black powder not 2 feet apart.......Really? Are you kidding me? This is a recipe for disaster. If this fellow keeps this practice up, it will not be a matter IF he has a horrible accident, it is just a matter of WHEN he has a horrible accident. If you need a candle to provide the hot wax, you should make all of your paper tubes first, then extinguish the candle and move it away from where you are working and then fill the tubes with your black powder. Keep your safety foremost in your mind when working with black powder.
 
Not to beat a dead horse but...On that isoceles trapezoid pattern with the trap door on the bottom: the sides of the trapezoid are lapped and glued, so now you have a paper tube that is open at both ends and the trapdoor at the bottom. With the tube still on the wood dowell/mandrel you fold the trap door over the back and crunch up the outside border of the trapdoor over the sides of the tube as you glue. This leaves just a single thickness of cigarette paper across the back. I miked cigarette paper versus newsprint and the newsprint is three times more thick and I usually get 100% ignition on the newsprint so on the cigarette paper- you really ought to get 100% ignition. The original cartridges had better treated paper- both nitrate and sulpheric acid(the military complained on the corrosive effect of the sulpheric acid) so virtually all the paper on the originals burnt up without residue. If you are getting a hang fire it might be plugged nipples(residue) or poor caps.
On the long arm type ammunition- that shearing on the Sharps- that's always been my understanding as well. There were millions of combustibles bought by the Union for use in the Springfield and Enfield 58 caliber rifled muskets but the results were never that good and the traditional paper cartirdge (not combustible) ammunition was the mainstay. For the long arms a lot of the combustibles were used in Colt's Revolving rifles and a break open (Gallager design) style and similar arms that I think were used mostly by cavalry or mounted infantry.
One thing I am still trying to find is more detail on the Johnston & Dow combustibles and if the Union arsenals made any. I think some combustibles were also imported- most likely from England. Combustibles were used in Europe and I believe first used in England. France and Germany used them.
Finally, it seems that the technology was there to make a brass cartridge type arm but the main delay was that the early cases had a bad habit of expanding under the explosion and sticking to the walls of the chamber- an extration issue- and the military felt the combustibles were more realiable until a better type of brass case could be developed. The early Smith and Wesson rimfires used mild 22 and 32 caliber loads where perhaps the cases didn't jam as easily- I am just guessing on that aspect.
 
For 44cal carts i use a 3/8 wood dowel. I wrap one end with masking tape so that it fits the chamber but still slides freely that gives me my taper. I glue a ball or bullet using Elmer's glue. cigarette papers good if i prick a hole in them But tea bags work a lot better.
 
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