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Paper Cartridge shooters, how should they fit?

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Test fitting .648 round balls in masking paper cartridge. In a completely clean bore the paper wrapped ball goes in with just a light finger pressure.

I see some videos online like Murphey's Muskets where he seems to almost be dropping them in.

With a fouled bore after 10 or so shots I don't want to be fighting them down the bore, but I'm newer to making smoothbore cartridges so I don't know what "ideal" fit is like.

This seems great but I know a heavily fouled bore is the big game changer here. I've seen pics of cartridges with the paper around the ball lubed with tallow, or something else.
 
Hi,
I never saw anyone try to push the entire paper cartridge with ball and powder down the bore of a musket. Historically, you bite off an end of the cartridge, pour a little powder in your pan, close the frizzen, pour the rest of the powder down the muzzle, drop in the loose ball and push the paper on top, then ram the load down the barrel.

dave
 
To "size" the cartridge such that it is ensured to fit, one can do what Stantheman is doing right there. In fact, unless I'm mistaken, the French musket manuals call for just such an exercise, and when I've had school children try their hand at rolling cartridges with bird-seed instead of black powder, we size the finished cartridge in just such a way.

The tallow-dipped ball goes in after the powder charge is dumped from the cartridge into the bore. The excess paper can be used as wadding. Once the bore gets good and fouled, then the paper has to be dispensed with...

Skirmishers use a .69 cal. plastic tube closed on one end. The paper is dispensed with. The powder measure goes in the tube, and then a lubed ball (Alox typically) is thumbed into the open mouth. To use, the ball is removed, the powder poured from the plastic tube into the bore, and then the naked ball goes in.

Good on you for doing things the "right way" and using the paper cartridge. I might recommend making up the entire, completed cartridge and then checking the size.
Go easy on your rammer as fouling starts to build up. You may want to chew a clean patch while you shoot, and when things start to get tough from the fouling, put the spit patch down the bore and then cap the musket a few times to dry it out, and then go back to shooting.
 
You want the paper cartridge to be a sliding fit. I use a 0.715" ball wrapped in a double wrap thin paper wrap in my 0.770" bore. I should use a larger ball, but the unit uses several bore sized muskets and the 0.715" ball works for all in our woods walk live fire events. Besides I don't expect great accuracy anyway. With fouling, the cartridge becomes quite tight. My solution is to tear the cartridge, pour the powder, spot on the paper wrapped ball, use the excess paper as a wad and ram it all down. The moisture from the spot keeps the fouling soft. On a recent woods walk at a station where many shots were fired, I was one of a few who didn't experience a stuck ball. The large bore may have helped, but so did the spot.

One of the steps I take between stations is to use a large wad of tow with my linen string (tow and toggle). I dampen the tow and using the rammer end of the rod, wipe the bore. There is enough heat in the bore after a few shots to keep the bore dry and the next load is easy once again.
 
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Awesome info, thank you :)

I guess there are many ways to do it but from what I've seen and read I think the intent was to dump the powder, then push the wrapped ball down "tail first" onto the powder.

If the battle got really heated and you were a few shots in then the famous "spitball" came into use with the loose ball taken out of the cartridge . I would think, historically, if you've fired 5-10 shots and the battle is still raging, then you just need to do what you have to do to keep shooting , dropping loose balls down the bore or whatever. Accuracy wasn't a concern obviously.

I'll have to get out and try these, .648 ball is close to the .65 ball that was given as the "standard " diameter for use with the .69 muskets. It's a "sliding fit" right now as in, I can hold the loose paper and slide it up and down in the bore but it doesn't feel like its "dropping" in.

I
 
Don't forget that before the .65 caliber ball was settled on as the standard round ball size for use with .69 muskets, that the balls were "19 to a pound" or .643"

I'm willing to bet that your .648 is well within the range of sizes used.

It'd be great to see some of Grenadier1758's flintlock musketry! I use tow, but on my percussion musket a wad is added to the "patch worm" that goes on the other end of the ramrod... I'll have to check out the line with a wad of tow once I get my flintlock actually working like it should! Good tips!
 
Track of the Wolf sells .626 balls, maybe I'll try them for my next batch.

.648 just seems like an odd, random size ball to cast but I'm guessing casting was far from an exact science in the era of the .69 Musket's military service and the molds probably threw a "range" of balls like you said, with them being somewhere in the .640's.

People ask about, "what's the point of a military weapon that gets fouled up and hard to load after 20-30 or so shots" and I tell them , it wasn't all that common oc an occurrence for soldiers to be shooting 50-100 rounds in a battle , especially in the 1700's , early 1800s. It was a few volleys exchanged , if no one broke then it was to the bayonets.

Even in the Civil War, a forum member highlighted a journal entry from a CSA 1st Sgt. talking about "going through all 40 cartridges and having to find more" during a battle , I guess we'll never know what kind but I assume Minie type or Pritchett bullets. It seemed like he was saying that was an exceptional amount of shooting if he felt it was worth noting or he was saying this to show he was in a long engagement.
 
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There are precise documents from British cartridge expenditure with smoothbores during the Peninsular War when the allied Portuguese and British armies fought the French.

There are precise calculations for Civil War battles made by Earl J. Hess from a "data set" of numbers from Confederate and Federal engagements in the Civil War.

Resupply was often improvisational, ad hoc, or extemporized. Sometimes people looked for functioning muskets and cartridges among the gravely wounded and slain.

1794, Flanders: "It would be doing a great injustice to the women of the army [camp followers] not to mention with what alacrity they contributed all the assistance in their power to the soldiers while engaged, some fetching their aprons full of cartridges from the ammunition wagons, and filling the pouches of the soldiers, at the hazard of their own lives, while others with a canteen filled with spirit and water, would hold it up to the mouths of the soldiers, half choked with gunpowder and thirst. ..."

There are some cases in the Peninsular War where British troops fired over 100 cartridges, albeit with breaks to swab fouling out of the guns and render them serviceable and to replenish ammunition stocks from wagons. The musket barrel gets hot--real hot fairly soon...

Earl J. Hess, The Rifle Musket in Civil War Combat: Reality and Myth (Kansas, 2008), p. 100 proffered an average cartridge expenditure per man per battle in the U.S. Civil War of 33. Some of the lower figures were 7 or 8, and some others, like Stones River, were up to 160 cartridges per man.

The Civil War average rate of fire for all battles in his data set was calculated at 1 shot every 2.1 minutes.

The average range of firefights for all battles: 94.4 yards.

Fire effectiveness could range wildly. There were some "perfect volleys" like at the Plains of Abraham outside Quebec, and there were others where prodigious amounts of ammunition was expended for fewer casualties than one might expect. In some defensive actions, people without functioning firearms of their own would sometimes load and hand over muskets to those capable of shooting well.
 
That book looks like something I need to get a copy of, fascinating.

I had always thought the 50-shot capacity of the Enfield cartridge box was kind of optimistic but maybe not.

The Gettysburg store owners , going back 30+ years had bowls full of Minies and .69 round balls because they said soldiers would dump them in the streams because carrying 40-50 rounds was heavy, so they would get rid of half of them to lighten their load and maybe figured they wouldn't need all of it.

The original Revolutionary War era cartridge boxes were usually like a 28-hole block with room for maybe a handful of cartridges under it. But I think the area below the block was for extra flints and maybe a tool, etc. I guess the different tactics of the day dictated the equipment.
 
Bite the end off the paper and pour the powder down the bbl. Remove ball from the top of cartridge and drop it down the bbl. Use the leftover paper to “seat” the ball firmly. Prime with a pan primer.

NEVER prime the pan before putting your hands in front of the muzzle!!! What they did back then was necessary for rapid fire in a military situation but today we aren’t shooting anyone with muskets so sheer speed is not needed!! If the cock falls from the half cock notch and strike the hammer, a spark can enter the tough hole. Keep the cock fully down with the hammer OPEN when loading!!!
 
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Test fitting .648 round balls in masking paper cartridge. In a completely clean bore the paper wrapped ball goes in with just a light finger pressure.

I see some videos online like Murphey's Muskets where he seems to almost be dropping them in.

With a fouled bore after 10 or so shots I don't want to be fighting them down the bore, but I'm newer to making smoothbore cartridges so I don't know what "ideal" fit is like.

This seems great but I know a heavily fouled bore is the big game changer here. I've seen pics of cartridges with the paper around the ball lubed with tallow, or something else.

In the book "Colonial Frontier Guns" by T.M. Hamilton, there is an amazing amount of information on actual bore sizes and ball sizes of both British and French Muskets in the 17th through the early 19th century. I have to generalize/paraphrase from that information as it is way too much to read and type.

In the period, French Muskets of "18 calibre" actually measured between .690" and .711" on the modern decimal inch measuring system. So a ball of .643" or .648" wrapped in cartridge paper would have fit looser in their bores than in modern .69 caliber bores that are within a few thousandths of an inch of .690".

The British Ordnance Department began using and issuing special "Cartridge Paper" to their forces around 1740 according to Bailey. This was special linen paper that was strong enough and thick enough, but not too thick to make wrapped paper cartridges that would fit any British Musket in the World. British Muskets ranged from .76 to .78 caliber in the period and though the official size ball they used was ".69 caliber," Hamilton's research from unfired/excavated British Balls throughout North America actually more commonly measure .700" and .710", with the last the most common size found.

The French also began issuing special linen cartridge paper to their troops around this same period, though I don't personally have books that date the start date as close as Bailey does for the British.

So far I have not yet been able to find any source that states the general thickness of either the British or French Special Linen Cartridge Papers. Further, though it seems both British and French Ordnance Departments actually gauged the cartridges to ensure they would fit their respective muskets, we don’t have dimensions on those gauges.

Bottom line is the cartridges you are making that take slight pressure to load are more than likely within period specs or possibly a tiny bit tight, though we can’t know for sure.

Oh, slightly changing tack to how many cartridges were actually used in a battle, it all depended on whether both sides had a large number of cartridges available and if both sides stood their ground to keep on shooting.

Very early in the UnCivil War, General Thomas Johnathan Jackson, CSA made the statement that any soldier in his command who fired more than 28 rounds in as battle, would be Court Martialed for wasting government property. However from the Seven Days Battles onward, he never stuck to his order.

In their Heroic Charges during the Second Day at the Battle of Gettysburg, some of Barksdale’s Mississippians reloaded their 40 round cartridge boxes at least once and twice if cartridges were available. Even so, they were mostly out of cartridges before they had to stop fighting. That meant Barksdale’s Boys fired at least 80 cartridges that day and many likely fired more than 100.

Gus
 
As stated up-post, the Model 1808 and several preceding models of cartridge boxes had 28 holes. By the time the 28 cartridges had all been fired, the musket was pretty thoroughly fouled and in need of swabbing out. A tin tray held the patch worm, ball puller, turn-screw, a couple spare gun flints (1 flint for every 20 cartridges was often thought necessary).

At Gettysburg, by then the cartridges were packaged ten to a paper parcel with an extra cartridge paper filled with 12 caps. 40 cartridges fit in most boxes, but the troops were issued 60 cartridges--at least the Federals were--for six packages of cartridges. Four in the box, and the two extra in pockets, knapsack, haversack, wherever. As one might expect, to "lighten the load" along the march, many of the "extra" cartridges would have been discarded. One might think this was especially true of the .69 caliber munitions, which really do weigh a lot!

I'll see if I might start another thread o the regiments at Gettysburg in Meade's command that were still armed with .69 smoothbores. There are no comparable documents on the Southron/Confederate side, unfortunately.
 
It'd be great to see some of Grenadier1758's flintlock musketry! I use tow, but on my percussion musket a wad is added to the "patch worm" that goes on the other end of the ramrod... I'll have to check out the line with a wad of tow once I get my flintlock actually working like it should! Good tips!

Don't know how great these pictures are, but here I am in action at the Woods walk at Fort de Chartres.
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This gives an idea of both sides. I have the belly box with 18 cartridges and the cartridge box with 20 cartridges. Busy day with shooting most os the cartridges I was carrying. There were supplies for several days in the linen bag. Finished in the middle of the competition.
 
I’m thinking that if a company or full regiment entered enemy range, say three hundred yards in WTBS or a hundred and fifty, a commander could only order his men to assault or withdraw. Hitting only 5% of the shots,at extreme range, you can’t stand there and watch 5% of your men go down every 30 seconds. Ten volleys would take 50% of your men lost just standing around.
A line moving a hundred and fifty yards would face four volleys. Three hundred maybe eight. You didn’t have time to fire to many shots.
Battles took hours and days, but the actual fire fight was probably no more then a few min before one line fell back.
 
@Grenadier1758= Fantastic! Thanks for the great pics!

One of these days I'll have to have someone take a pic of me in my Texian Army of the People stuff... Or Civil War gear, although I guess that is "same ol' same ol'" to the jaded!

Good work!
 
There are some cases in the Peninsular War where British troops fired over 100 cartridges, albeit with breaks to swab fouling out of the guns and render them serviceable and to replenish ammunition stocks from wagons. The musket barrel gets hot--real hot fairly soon...

I can attest to that. When we used to do an 18th century battle reenactment in front of the National Archives in downtown Washington, D.C. on the 4th of July; it averaged 92 degrees or hotter and the asphalt we had to stand on was between 110 to 120 degrees. When we did the "Highland Drill," which was an 18th century skirmish tactic, somewhere around 15 to 20 cartridges and our barrels got so hot it singed the skin from our hands to the barrel. Wow, it is difficult to clean burnt on skin and blood off a barrel!

Gus
 
Yes. I've not left charred/seared skin behind, but I will say that I've gotten burned. Sometimes things get so hot in a skirmish I have to put the stock/barrel in the crook of my right arm against my uniform "hot pad" while I use both hands to disassemble the cartridge for loading...

For flintlocks, the drill was to prime the pan from the cartridge, but in the very important safety info up post by Smokey Plainsman, it behooves us modern day people to only cap or prime on the line, and to do it after loading is accomplished. Always "cast the musket about" such that the muzzle is pointed away from you in a safe direction, and don't thumb the ball into the bore... Unless you aren't attached to having an opposable thumb! Some shooters have had the powder go "whoosh!" up in flames as soon as it is poured down a hot and fouled bore too... A nasty burn if one's hand is over the muzzle where it shouldn't be... So yes, be mindful of those things.
 
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