Paper Cartridge Woes

[Snydly]

Some time ago I posted about using paper cartridges on my Pietta 1851 Navy, .36 cal. The paper got jammed between the forcing cone and the cylinder causing the gun to jam. At the time I suspected that I used too much paper so I vowed to use less paper AND to nitrate the paper. So I got some coffee filter paper and nitrated it, made cartridges using less paper and lubed the balls. No joy! I still get paper jams.

Here are pictures of the old style cartridge and the new. New style first and old style second. View attachment 140248

I am beginning to think that it is the gun and not the cartridge but I would like any input from paper cartridge users to see if you have experienced this. I measured the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone and it is .004" Perhaps too large allowing unburned paper to blow out there?

I have been using cigarette papers with no problem on my 44 1851 and my 36 sheriffs model

 

[fishmusic]

Hi All,

I have more information to work with. Y'all have reassured me that the gun is not the problem So I will start from scratch with making the cartridges with the cigarette paper supplied in the kit. I will try both nitrated and non-nitrated and make them per the instructions. I will use only .380 balls. From that point I will change only one parameter at a time If I don't have success with first tries. Thanks for you input and encouragement. i will update you as I go.

 

[hawkeye2]

What are you using to glue the paper to the ball? Could it be "fireproofing" the paper at that point so that it's not burning?

 

[Rich44]

You are not going to get much cheaper or thinner.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/393404712808?hash=item5b98bf8768:g:poYAAOSw8BNg0RJI

 

[Bighorserider]

I f you are using the Guns of the West kit you aren't following Dustin's directions if you have those things sticking out over the ball. I suggest watching his video on using the kit.

 

[fishmusic]

I f you are using the Guns of the West kit you aren't following Dustin's directions if you have those things sticking out over the ball. I suggest watching his video on using the kit.

Bighorserider, In the pics I posted the first one is per the instructions and the second is with a twisted top. I stopped making the ones with a twisted top so I reduce the paper used.

 

[J.Campbell63]

I haven’t done .36 in several years. I have been doing .44 for a repo Colt ‘60. I do get some paper left sometimes , maybe once out of ten. I use a different kit. Only difference is I use very light cigarette paper and got a larger circle punch (1inch). Also I reduced the load for Kerr bullets to 21 grains real black. Small issue at the loading gate due to overall length of the cartridge which when I reduced charge all but eliminated that issue. I have been lucky as this revolver seems not to have the legendary arbor issue (Pietta) and no cap jams from over two tins of caps. Haven’t used nitrated paper but plan on it.

 

[Desperate Lee]

You are not going to get much cheaper or thinner.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/393404712808?hash=item5b98bf8768:g:poYAAOSw8BNg0RJI
View attachment 140859

Fishmusic
I use end wraps from Sally's, Elmores gluestick, and either Goex FFF or Pyrodex P for my loads. Never had any problems once i got the form tool right. If your loads are moving forward upon firing then i would suggest you measure your cylinder throat and get a better fitting bullet. Some thirty six cal pistols have large cylinder throats. The lead should still shave a ring off as it is loaded. If this is not the case then your other loads can and will move forward under recoil.

 

[Red Owl]

I checked out the original Colt patents. He did have one combustible with a ball but the ones actually used had a conical bullet and the paper or case overlapped about 1/8" around the bullet's base. The case was tapers to slide into the chamber. They were fragile so they were put into "packets" originally heavy paper but then little boxes. Use cigarette paper.
ONCE AGAIN. any remaining paper embers can cause a new round to explode- check the chambers before reloading.

 

[William P Sepessy]

Fishmusic, if I understand you correctly, the paper covering the ball is being sheared off on loading. Then, as you rotate the cylinder for loading the remaining chambers, that sheared off paper eventually jams between the forcing cone and cylinder face before you are finished. That is exactly what I experienced. As I use my paper cartridges occasionally at Cowboy matches where expediency in loading can be important, I was spending too much time clearing those "paper jams". I finally just made up paper cartridges without any projectile. They load quick and easy. True, another step is involved loading a projectile, but there is never any shredded paper to clear and then I can use a round ball or conical, whichever I choose.

 

[ernbar]

I have the same issue using RAW and curling papers in my .36 Navy 51. I’m gonna try the loading packet style and see how that goes.

 

[Bunk]

II will check the size of the mandrill of my shiny new Mesa wind former. Right now I am about 100 rounds nearly completed and plan to shoot some next week.
However my cartridges use the Colt Cartridge Works .375" heel bullet.
Old West Bullet moulds sells a 125 grain .375" round nose heel bullet very nicely made about 30 buckskins per 100.
I roll my tubes to have the heel and paper go into the chamber. I use nitrated coffee filters mostly because they were used to roll up great big fat Sharps cartridges. Rolling these tiny .36 tubes is a lot harder.
Good Luck
Bunk

 

[Bunk]

Some time ago I posted about using paper cartridges on my Pietta 1851 Navy, .36 cal. The paper got jammed between the forcing cone and the cylinder causing the gun to jam. At the time I suspected that I used too much paper so I vowed to use less paper AND to nitrate the paper. So I got some coffee filter paper and nitrated it, made cartridges using less paper and lubed the balls. No joy! I still get paper jams.

Here are pictures of the old style cartridge and the new. New style first and old style second. View attachment 140248

I am beginning to think that it is the gun and not the cartridge but I would like any input from paper cartridge users to see if you have experienced this. I measured the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone and it is .004" Perhaps too large allowing unburned paper to blow out there?

I would suggest if you are making paper cap and ball cartridges find a copy of a book by John Gurnee
It is a store house of information.
HOW TO MAKE CAP AND BALL REVOLVER CARTRIDGES AND PACKETS.
also on UTube Frontier Western Heritage channel there is information on making both cartridges and cartridge boxes.
Along with a lot of shooting worth looking up
Respectfully
Bunk

 

[nick_1]

for about 20 years i had been making powder packets with paper. they work great in winter when its dry but in summer they suck up humidity. I also noticed that in competition I sometimes got one that was hard to completely open to get the powder to pour cleanly down my barrel. this summer we had a really humid spell where my cartridges were going bad over night. I tried making them with wax paper and that made them last almost two days before reliability suffered in the form of hang fires. I finally gave up on the whole time consuming process and now load directly from my flask with a measuring nozzel. it seems to go faster for me. I am shooting pistol so its easy. Rifle would be a bit scetchier because with a 30g nozzel you would have to dump twice and that would likly lead to errors under stress... even if I accidently dumped 3 times it would still be a safe load though. .

 

[Bunk]

Some time ago I posted about using paper cartridges on my Pietta 1851 Navy, .36 cal. The paper got jammed between the forcing cone and the cylinder causing the gun to jam. At the time I suspected that I used too much paper so I vowed to use less paper AND to nitrate the paper. So I got some coffee filter paper and nitrated it, made cartridges using less paper and lubed the balls. No joy! I still get paper jams.

Here are pictures of the old style cartridge and the new. New style first and old style second. View attachment 140248

I am beginning to think that it is the gun and not the cartridge but I would like any input from paper cartridge users to see if you have experienced this. I measured the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone and it is .004" Perhaps too large allowing unburned paper to blow out there?

After reading n=Mr. Gruenns book carefully he did not give dimensions for a .36 former.
Mine tapers from 0.27









































Mr. Gurnee does not give dimensions for a .36 former. His book is mostly for the .44 and packaging.
I measured my former mandrill and and here are the dimensions
. Sorry but he numbers are decimal fractions that is the best I could do.
The former tapers from 0.27" to 0.40" and the taper is 1.44" long.
My choice was nitrated coffee filter paper because It is stiff and sturdy enough that a single layer is sufficient.
The coupon for the body is in the form of a trapezoid approximately 2" wide with bullet end 1.19" long and the chamber end 1.0" long. The small end is closed with a hair curler paper disk. This may take some adjustment.
I use a heel bullet with the top edge of the tube enclosing the heel and all the paper goes into the chamber with a bit of the base driving band sheared off.
Two weights of a proper .375" heel bullet can be purchased from Old West Bullet Moulds at a reasonable price.
I am about 75 rounds into this cartridge making thing and this is what I have figured out so far.
All of this applies to a 17 grain FFFg powder charge and the Colt Cartridge Works bullet.
I have not a clue on using a ball to make the cartridge, but would suspect the ball would be glued to the paper below the widest part of the ball.
Commercial paper cartridge making ceased in about 1890 so we are reviving a skill that has been lost 130 years or so ago.
Comments and suggestions, appreciated snarky cracks will be taken with humor,
Respectfully
Yr; Obt' Svt'
Bunk.





























'

 

[Bunk]

After reading n=Mr. Gruenns book carefully he did not give dimensions for a .36 former.
Mine tapers from 0.27









































Mr. Gurnee does not give dimensions for a .36 former. His book is mostly for the .44 and packaging.
I measured my former mandrill and and here are the dimensions
. Sorry but he numbers are decimal fractions that is the best I could do.
The former tapers from 0.27" to 0.40" and the taper is 1.44" long.
My choice was nitrated coffee filter paper because It is stiff and sturdy enough that a single layer is sufficient.
The coupon for the body is in the form of a trapezoid approximately 2" wide with bullet end 1.19" long and the chamber end 1.0" long. The small end is closed with a hair curler paper disk. This may take some adjustment.
I use a heel bullet with the top edge of the tube enclosing the heel and all the paper goes into the chamber with a bit of the base driving band sheared off.
Two weights of a proper .375" heel bullet can be purchased from Old West Bullet Moulds at a reasonable price.
I am about 75 rounds into this cartridge making thing and this is what I have figured out so far.
All of this applies to a 17 grain FFFg powder charge and the Colt Cartridge Works bullet.
I have not a clue on using a ball to make the cartridge, but would suspect the ball would be glued to the paper below the widest part of the ball.
Commercial paper cartridge making ceased in about 1890 so we are reviving a skill that has been lost 130 years or so ago.
Comments and suggestions, appreciated snarky cracks will be taken with humor,
Respectfully
Yr; Obt' Svt'
Bunk.



I have no idea what happened here but somehow the program crashed on me.

Sorry about that
bunk

'

I

 

[ernbar]

So I went to the range today and verified my theory about the jams I’m getting using round balls and cig and curling paper. As I loaded a cylinder I noticed a shaved lead and paper ring after seating that easily slid off on rotation. There was a thin paper ring visible around the seated round ball in the chamber. This confirmed my theory that unburned paper just forward of the seated ball is causing the jams. This cylinder jammed after the first shot due the unburned paper.
Next I used my pre measured clear plastic tubing loaders with 15grn of Schuetzen and a wad. Using this loading method I fired 3 cylinders with 0 issues.
I also installed an action shield in the Navy’s hammer, packed the internals with high temp grease and installed Slikshots. The .36 Pietta 51 Navy ran super smooth and was a tack driver at 15 meters using the taller front sight post that I made up. I will do the same mod on my other Colt style pistols for smooth operation and reliability.

 

[nick_1]

I am starting to think that the best way to shoot these pistols in a hurry is to have lots of them

 

[Bunk]

Perhaps I am dodging the bullet so to speak, but the original Colt Cartridge Works used a heel bullet.
Eras Gone makes a mold that replicates that bullet. Therefore the cartridge I try to make replicates the Colt original except for tusing the nitrated coffee filter paper.
Old West Bullet Moulds sell two different weights of .375" heel bullet at a reasonable price for you noncasters.
If the paper tube is filled with powder enough to place the entire heel in the paper tube but not over the driving band loading is easy. If the paper is over the driving band the best thing to do is salvage power and bullet because they will not properly line up with the chamber mouth and a bullet will not load sideways.
That, for what it is worth , I share my learning curve..
Bunk

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

Some time ago I posted about using paper cartridges on my Pietta 1851 Navy, .36 cal. The paper got jammed between the forcing cone and the cylinder causing the gun to jam. At the time I suspected that I used too much paper so I vowed to use less paper AND to nitrate the paper. So I got some coffee filter paper and nitrated it, made cartridges using less paper and lubed the balls. No joy! I still get paper jams.

Here are pictures of the old style cartridge and the new. New style first and old style second. View attachment 140248

I am beginning to think that it is the gun and not the cartridge but I would like any input from paper cartridge users to see if you have experienced this. I measured the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone and it is .004" Perhaps too large allowing unburned paper to blow out there?

This may have all been said by now, but....
Coffee filter paper is just too heavy to use, at least that is what I have found. Get some Zig Zag rolling papers from the local 7-11 or Circle K (or a "head shop" if you are in California). One thing I do though is when I've rammed the ball and cartridge home, I always shake or blow off the ring of paper that is sheared off. That ring will make it difficult for the cylinder to turn.