Paper Cartridge Woes

[fishmusic]

Some time ago I posted about using paper cartridges on my Pietta 1851 Navy, .36 cal. The paper got jammed between the forcing cone and the cylinder causing the gun to jam. At the time I suspected that I used too much paper so I vowed to use less paper AND to nitrate the paper. So I got some coffee filter paper and nitrated it, made cartridges using less paper and lubed the balls. No joy! I still get paper jams.

Here are pictures of the old style cartridge and the new. New style first and old style second.

I am beginning to think that it is the gun and not the cartridge but I would like any input from paper cartridge users to see if you have experienced this. I measured the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone and it is .004" Perhaps too large allowing unburned paper to blow out there?

 

[fishmusic]

Wow, 64 views but not one opinion! Surely someone out there has an idea (yes we have opinions and don't call us Shirly).

 

[Whitworth]

OK, here goes, I'm thinking the paper is being sheared off the ball during seating. Try having the paper slightly below the maximum diameter of the ball so no paper is touching the cylinder when ramming. This should keep all the combustible paper with the charge to burn up. YMMV

 

[LST-1185]

Don't remember ever having that problem with my 44 caliber revolvers and I been using paper cartridges for about 30 years. I use Element rolling papers wrap around a 7/16" wood dowel rod and glue a dry 1/8" felt wad on the end. I don't attach any conicals, round balls or lube to the cartridge because I like to experiment with the different types when shooting. Also when shooting I use a can of co2 to blow out the chambers before reloading that removes any left over fowling. A .004 cylinder gap is fine as some of my revolvers have a gap in the .003 to .008 range and don't suffer from any jams caused from paper. When loading I place the cartridge in the chamber, ram it down, then a small amount of lube on top of the cartridge and then the round ball. If I'm using conicals the lube is already part of the bullet. Hope this information is useful to and good luck with your revolver.

 

[Eutycus]

The cartridges don't appear to be tapered much,are you using a homemade mandrel? Possibly sand the end down a little so you'll have a tad smaller and tapered cartridge to insert into the mouth of cylinder.Just a hunch and I'm guessing.

 

[Dude]

Give us a little more data to work with - like, diameter of ball, diameter after wrap, cylinder bore diameter. How difficult is it to ram the balls home?

 

[fishmusic]

The cartridges don't appear to be tapered much,are you using a homemade mandrel? Possibly sand the end down a little so you'll have a tad smaller and tapered cartridge to insert into the mouth of cylinder.Just a hunch and I'm guessing.

Eutycus, that may be just a bad photograph. I am using a kit from Guns of the West and there is a definite taper from ball to the base of the cartridge. No problem fitting them into a cylinder.

 

[Eutycus]

Eutycus, that may be just a bad photograph. I am using a kit from Guns of the West and there is a definite taper from ball to the base of the cartridge. No problem fitting them into a cylinder.

Yeah, unfortunately I know all about bad photos!

 

[cynthialee]

I am at a loss in the moment
I occasionally use home made carts, but I never had a paper jam issue, and I am not using nitrated paper. I would think with nitrated paper it should burn up.
I use rolling papers to make mine.

 

[user 51067]

Perhaps the forcing cone is a bit undersized as compared to the chambers?

 

[fishmusic]

OK, here goes, I'm thinking the paper is being sheared off the ball during seating. Try having the paper slightly below the maximum diameter of the ball so no paper is touching the cylinder when ramming. This should keep all the combustible paper with the charge to burn up. YMMV

This is worth some thought and experimentation. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Tenring]

I have tried every paper known to man and I still have NON Burned up semi large pieces still in the cylinder, I thought about going nitride paper but just have not got around to getting any stump remover to make it. I have been loading off the pistol with the old ram device but there are times when I just want to go to the range with just a couple of dozen paper cartridges and not have to fiddle with any gear except caps. You know..

 

[Desperate Lee]

Let me get this straight, is it jamming as you load the cartridge or as you are firing it? When i make my cartridges, mine have really good taper. Also as i insert the ball i make sure i push the ball down on the powder to make a good packed cartridge. I have found that loose paper tends to wad up when inserted and forcing cartridge down bore. Now granted i dont load for 36 cal, on these it is powder - wad - ball - then cap. Now on my big 44's i do use paper catridges. If i find some picture i will post them. Sorry no photo up close but you see i do leave a tail on them. It comes off as i load.

 

[Poguetx]

IMHO, coffee filter paper is too thick. Use hair curling paper. Also the Guns of the West kit is well worth the money, and the mandrill will make sure you cut the paper so it doesn't protrude over the center of the ball.

 

[Rich44]

I do feel the smaller the caliber the more challenging it is to have success with paper cartridges. Reading your post seems you only have a problem with jams when shooting, not in loading. And .004 gap is not excessive. So it kind of narrows it down to the paper not being consumed. Never used coffee filter paper but the paper that is used is very thin. And seems to burn complete. But the big difference is I drop the powder pack in, a wad, and then the ball and seat it. Would recommend changing paper for the heck of it and or as others have pointed out have the paper under the ball.

 

[MSW]

don't know if this helps, bet there's a casting mold made for 'eras gone' by Lee... here's a link

.44 Johnston & Dow (erasgonebullets.com)

kinda spendy, but it's a once-in-a-lifetime purchase if you take even halfway decent care of it ... i have Lee molds in use for more than forty years ... i tried this system and it's worked well for me.

 

[fishmusic]

Give us a little more data to work with - like, diameter of ball, diameter after wrap, cylinder bore diameter. How difficult is it to ram the balls home?

Dude, (not being rude just using your post name, Dude). The balls are .375" dia., the mandrel goes from .365" down to .311" and .915" long but I have never measured the cylinder bores. Let's just say that they are smaller than the .375 " balls because I get a lead ring when pressing them into the cylinder. It's not difficult to ram the balls when compared the .380" balls I have tried but still requires a modicum of force.

 

[fishmusic]

Let me get this straight, is it jamming as you load the cartridge or as you are firing it? When i make my cartridges, mine have really good taper. Also as i insert the ball i make sure i push the ball down on the powder to make a good packed cartridge. I have found that loose paper tends to wad up when inserted and forcing cartridge down bore. Now granted i dont load for 36 cal, on these it is powder - wad - ball - then cap. Now on my big 44's i do use paper catridges. If i find some picture i will post them. Sorry no photo up close but you see i do leave a tail on them. It comes off as i load.

Desperate, the problem is when I fire the gun. I do pack them but they do eventually loosen up. Have not had any problems with the paper wadding up upon insertion.

 

[fishmusic]

I do feel the smaller the caliber the more challenging it is to have success with paper cartridges. Reading your post seems you only have a problem with jams when shooting, not in loading. And .004 gap is not excessive. So it kind of narrows it down to the paper not being consumed. Never used coffee filter paper but the paper that is used is very thin. And seems to burn complete. But the big difference is I drop the powder pack in, a wad, and then the ball and seat it. Would recommend changing paper for the heck of it and or as others have pointed out have the paper under the ball.

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Rich44, I have used cigarette papers (not nitrate) and had the same issue. I can experiment with papers to see what the difference might be. I will also try the powder packet method. The major reason for using cartridges is that the nearest shooting range is an indoor range that charges by the hour so I want to get as many rounds in as I can for that hour. The other range I use is 50 miles away and only charges for the day but gas prices and home projects keep me from doing that very often.

 

[cw1873]

I recently got some of those hair papers and I am going to try powder packets as well. I don't like handling loose powder at the range and I'm not trying to be historically correct, so I think that's a good option. I'm curious how you go with them and if you have any tips once you try them out.