Paper Cartridges with #4 shot?

[SgtErv]

Howdy,

Brand new to smoothbore shooting and may try some squirrel hunting this fall. Been a very long time since I've hunted, but figured if I was going to get back into it, I'd use a flintlock, a Brown Bess specially.

After doing some reading I got might confused. I like to simplify as much as possible. Leads me to a couple of questions:

1. A theoretical load of powder> inch of tow > 70gr of #4 shot > another inch of tow. Would that be functional?

2. What about making paper cartridges, instead of using round ball in the end, using #4 shot?

Curious as to your thoughts. Please note that there's no way I'd hunt without developing a sound load first. Ethics are important to me, and I passed up many questionable shots in my youth because of the potential of wounding an animal or losing track of it before I could find it in the waning light and such.

Thanks for the input!

 

[George]

I've never used paper cartridges, can't speak to that.

I have hunted squirrels a fair amount with good success using tow wadding. I've always used #5 shot for gray and fox squirrels and found that to be a good choice out to 25-30 yards.

It seems to me that gasses can blow through the overpowder tow if you don't put enough in. For my 20 gauge I want enough so that it is 1/2"-3/4" thick after being well rammed to compact it. Lately I've been using one of T. Pages brown paper wads or a card on the powder before putting down the OP tow, that seems to form a better barrier and works very well.

In my 20 gauge I've had good luck with 70 grains 2F and an equal volume of #5. I believe a Bess is 11 gauge, isn't it? You'll need a bit more of everything for that, but it should work very well.

Spence

 

[SgtErv]

Thanks Spence. The Bess is somewhere between an 11 and 12 gauge, bore diameter being .75. She does indeed take a lot of everything haha

I am rather intrigued by using the Bess as a shotgun. 25-30 yards would be the maximum shot I could get in these thick woods, anyway.

The gas seal with paper cartridges and round ball isn't the best, so I'm thinking I could perhaps achieve a better one with shot and experimenting with different wads. I like the idea of tow for its historical record.

Thanks Spence. I owe your website a visit to be sure

 

[Loyalist Dave]

1. A theoretical load of powder> inch of tow > 70gr of #4 shot > another inch of tow. Would that be functional?

2. What about making paper cartridges, instead of using round ball in the end, using #4 shot?

Both work for me!

Although the first version can be cumbersome, here is what I do...,

I make powder cartridges, and I use 70 grains of 2Fg. These are made with paper that I harvest from old books. The library sells old, hardback novels for $1 each, and I use that paper. (I also use that paper for reenactment blanks) I mark the outside with a felt tip with an H for "hunting".

I make a second cartridge from newsprint, which holds only shot. I mark the outside with a number to indicate the size of the shot.

To load, I tear open the powder cartridge, pour in the load, and then ram down the empty cartridge tube, made of bond paper from the books, to form my wad. Then I ram down the newsprint cartridge with the shot, intact, and seat that on top of the newly formed wad.

Then, and only then, do I prime with my horn...., OR if using my caplock SxS, I add the caps to the nipples. Ready to Go!

This loading procedure is pretty simply and pretty quick. You can easily tell if you are holding a shot cartridge or a powder cartridge, even when wearing gloves, due to weight.

LD

 

[SgtErv]

Thanks Dave. At first I was initimidated by thinking using shot would be sort of complex. The dual paper cartridge sounds really simple. Probably good for quick reloading while hunting.

I actually had taken to writing the ball size on the paper cartridge when I was experimenting with different loads. (And regretting when I didn't lol)

 

[wulf]

I made a lot of paper cartridges....69 cal ball..
Buck and ball....double O buck....And # shot...and
I make them a lot simpler....Maybe not as PC but\
quicker...

 

[Stumpkiller]

Howdy,

Brand new to smoothbore shooting and may try some squirrel hunting this fall. Been a very long time since I've hunted, but figured if I was going to get back into it, I'd use a flintlock, a Brown Bess specially.

After doing some reading I got might confused. I like to simplify as much as possible. Leads me to a couple of questions:

1. A theoretical load of powder> inch of tow > 70gr of #4 shot > another inch of tow. Would that be functional?

2. What about making paper cartridges, instead of using round ball in the end, using #4 shot?

Curious as to your thoughts. Please note that there's no way I'd hunt without developing a sound load first. Ethics are important to me, and I passed up many questionable shots in my youth because of the potential of wounding an animal or losing track of it before I could find it in the waning light and such.

Thanks for the input!

I used to make up paper cartridges with shot for my Bess. Still do with round ball for my 16 gauge fowler. But I prefer wads & cards for birds & upland game in that piece.

When you speak of "passing up questionable shots" I assume you have patterned any load in use and have an outside distance in mind. With a paper cartridge you may loose 5 or 10 yards to a wad, paper shot cup and overshot card load. (IME).

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The dual paper cartridge sounds really simple. Probably good for quick reloading while hunting.

I started doing this with a choked Pedersoli SxS, and I hunt often with guys with breech loaders, so they don't want to wait around for me, so it is fast.

It also allows you to tailor your loads in a SxS..., so if I'm going for squirrel and dove (like this month) I can load the right barrel with #7.5 shot with improved cylinder, and the left barrel with #5 and modified choke for squirrels. Walking the edge of the field/woods I can go for either.

LD

 

[SgtErv]

Haven't patterned anything yet. Back when I hunted it was with unmentionables. I just didn't take shots through brush and stuff, only pulled trigger if I knew 99% I could get a clean, quick kill.

The woods where I'll be are pretty thick second and third growth stuff, so 25-30 yards will be maximum. More often than not, 15-20 probably.

Next few range trips I'll be experimenting. Good to know I might get less range with paper cartridge. I'll see which of the two does better in general then tweak it from there I reckon.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Since the middle sixties I have used both shot paper cartridges made from three thickness of newsprint tied shut with kite string, and a wax paper powder charge for hunting or trap shooting. I load by opening the powder charge dumping it down the bore with the wax paper following, then two leather wads and ending with the shot cartridge.I have found that more than three thickness of newspaper will give you a "slugging" effect, less than three falls apart in you shooting bag. :idunno:

 

[Wes/Tex]

Long gone friend of mine hunted with paper cartridges exclusively. His main claim t fame was using original Brown Bess muskets, Baker rifles and a William Clark fowling piece. His Clark fowler was a 10 gauge and he used the plastic/fiber wads available for reloading shot shells in the 60's & 70's. He glued them in about midway up the paper he rolled the cartridge from. You have to use undersized wads to account for the paper thickness. Outfits like TOTW have a number of different diameter wads available if you decide to go that way. He'd glue up the tubes, let them set then pour powder in the bottom and fold and shot in the to and tie off with kite string. He'd also use an old brush to brush lube on the outside from the wad up to the top. To load, he'd bite off the bottom and pour in the powder, pour it in and push the cartridge till it was flush top with muzzle, hold by tip ad cut off top, push down with a card on the top et voila, all set to go! :wink: :haha: Can't argue with success. There's a marvelous photo of **** kneeling and hold up a Canadian goose and his William Clark fowler! :thumbsup:

 

[SgtErv]

That's interesting..I also out lube on the cartridges, usually just around the lead end so I don't have to taste mink oil.

I fiddled with the cartridge/shot idea just a little and it looks like Dave's idea with the separate cartridges for ball and powder will work best. Measuring some out today to prep for the range. I'll no doubt blast apart the little wooden target stand I built but it's already wounded by a couple of .715 balls anyway :rotf:

 

[SgtErv]

Reporting back after a range trip today:

1. Do paper cartridges loaded with buckshot instead of round ball work?
Sort of, but not really. It will load and stay loaded, but didn't pattern, really. A bit wide of the mark.

2. Does tow>shot> work?
Absolutely. Rather well. There were 5 or 6 shots on the target at 30 yards. (Caveat, see below)

3. Buck and ball
Kicked like a mule!

Overall, it'll take a lot more practice with different loads and such. But that wasn't the real issue today haha. I haven't been able to make it to the range in about 3 weeks, so that along with the heavy, heavy trigger pull and a bit of flinching had me shooting terribly today. Only one cure for that.

Also, a Bess barrel gets incredibly hot owing to its thinness

 

[coloradoclyde]

Find what works in your gun and then load that into a paper cartridge.....

It may no be HC/PC but I load my paper cartridges much like a commercial shotgun shell....

I've use leather wads, hard cards, felt and cork wads....and even tow......To find what shoots best.....All can be assembled into a paper cartridge.....

Tedious but it works.

A simpler method is to simply make paper pre-loaded shot charges and then load to your best loading.....

Also, Don't forget the type of cartridge paper......that is very important when loading shot.

 

[Canute Rex]

Trying to hit anything with a Bess is a trial. They were made for durability and speed loading, so yes, the trigger pull is horrendous and the lock time is measured with a calendar.

The approved method is to load it at home, **** it, pull the trigger, put it carefully in your car, drive to the range, pull it out, walk to the firing line, floss your teeth*, aim, wait a few minutes, and the thing will eventually go off.

That said...

I used to try hitting targets with a Bess and one thing I learned was to take a death grip with my right hand on the wrist of the stock. I mean like vise-grip pliers. Otherwise there is a tendency for the musket to "fall off the trigger" and the muzzle drops. Or pulls sideways.

I also learned that the last thing to do before pulling the trigger is to shift my face back an inch. Otherwise my right thumb would often (randomly) whack my nose. That adds to flinch.

Tight patched ball worked best for me. A Bess shooter needs every advantage.

A paper container tight enough to hold together in your bag is a container tight enough to blow your pattern. I like the two cartridge idea. SWAG suggestion: Use the shot cartridge the same way you use the powder cartridge - tear and pour, cartridge paper as over-wad.

*dental hygiene is always important, and you've got some spare time

 

[SgtErv]

No toothless emoticon to put here for that!

Appreciate it. I'll get the hang of it. Certainly a fun day at the range.

Also got to see some smoldering tow I'd used as wadding. That was a trip

 

[Black Hand]

75gr FFFg

Over-powder card (punched from posterboard and greased with deer tallow)

Paper-wrapped measure of shot (wrapped in brown paper and greased with deer tallow - tied at both ends like a Tootsie-roll) - insert in barrel and cut the forward twist to make a paper shot-cup.

Over-shot card (punched from thin cardboard envelope and greased with deer tallow).

 

[SgtErv]

Thanks everyone. You all have some good insights. I really like the idea of a cartridge incorporating various methods like cards, wads, and the like. Basically, get creative!

And as far as shooting the Bess...lock time is less an issue than trigger pull for me. Ignition was only noticeably delayed when I didn't pick the vent. Still, shooting that musket is an entirely different animal than a Longrifle. I think some of the most basic tenets stay unchanged, but the techniques to achieve those tenets (like the death grip with the right hand) differs.

Thank you all as always. I've learned a tremendous amount on this forum

 

[Crewdawg445]

Buddy, I personally have been using an oz of # 4 and 60gr's. of 3f. Certainly it's not a distance load, but from my usual 25-30yard shot it works every time and I couldn't tell ya how it patterns, but the squirrel do not like it! At the distance I usually shoot, I may even knock back the charge a little though. Paper cartridges are just easy and fun, you can also use tow as an over powder and overshot wad. I've tried it several times and really didn't notice any big differences. Just some thoughts to throw your way! Happy to hear your hitting the woods! Keep at it.

 

[coloradoclyde]

#4 shot is my all around favorite size.....Ad I generally shoot a charge a 55 grains....Taking into account any differences between our measures, I'd say we are in the same ball park. :thumbsup: