Paper Patched Bullets

[Westporter]

I have a couple of hundred or more 45 caliber conical bullets designed for paper patching. To accommodate for the patching, the actual bullet diameter is under .458, and varies somewhat depending on bullet weight, etc. Bullet weights vary from 450-550 grains. I owned at one time a percussion rifle built for such bullets. The twist I believe was around 1/16. My question here is it possible to use such bullets in a 45 caliber muzzleloader built for patched round balls? I have such a rifle with a 1/48 twist. I am guessing that accuracy would be the first issue. The other issue would be the powder charge?

 

[deerstalkert]

youtube IdahoLewis. He does it all the time!

 

[fleener]

As you know your pressure would be greater shooting a 500 grain bullet vs shooting a .45 cal round ball, that might be a problem for your rifle and nipple. Go shoot them and see. Regarding accuracy, that is a moving target. You want to shoot sub MOA groups at 100 yards? OR are you happy with 8 inch groups at 100 yards?

The longer the bullet the faster the twist needed to stabilize it.

Fleener

 

[ResearchPress]

My question here is it possible to use such bullets in a 45 caliber muzzleloader built for patched round balls? I have such a rifle with a 1/48 twist. I am guessing that accuracy would be the first issue. The other issue would be the powder charge?

Not just twist rate, but depth of rifling may be an issue if it is designed for patched round ball. The paper patched bullet may not expand sufficiently to fill the rifling. As Fleener notes, consider also the pressures developed in using such bullets and the breech plug and wear to the nipple.

David

 

[pilot]

The 1/48 twist was developed for shooting both patched round ball and bullets. The twist for round ball alone is usually closer to 1/66. Your rifle should be able to handle bullets just fine. The issue is using the paper patched bullets. As I understand it, the fit is crucial. The only way to find out is to try it. Remember to start out with a reduced powder charge and work up.

I've been a hand loader for a very long time of those that use brass. I'm very familiar with signs of excessive pressure there. I have no idea what to look for when testing muzzleloaders. Using a chronograph would help a lot. Good luck with your project and let us know how it works out.

 

[French Colonial]

I doubt the twist is fast enough for bullets that long, at least for accuracy at distance, say 300-500 yards where in a cartridge gun they would be right at home.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Has anyone tried .357 - .358 bullets in a .36 caliber muzzleloader? I've shot a few of these bare with just the standard smokeless powder bullet lube on them. While the bullets flew more or less where they were supposed to go, they were quite loose in the bore so the gun needed to be carried muzzle-up until just before shooting. I paper-patched a few yesterday, so today they might get some Bore Butter applied and we'll see what happens.

 

[senseisugarbear]

A good sign of over pressure is the Hammer resetting it's self ,,BACK OFF charge.I've had it happen...Be Safe>>Wally

 

[Uncle Miltie]

You can try it but you will need to load the bullets straight in the bore and increase the powder charge quite a bit to stabilize the bullet with the slow twist.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

My .460 bore uses a .440 smooth sided projectile and uses two complete wraps.
Thats BPC not muzzle stuffer.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Well, I tried it. Used 20 grains of 3f Old Eynsford. Paper patched with vintage manifold copy paper... basically onionskin. Two wraps moistened with water and flour, then let dry at least overnight. Before loading, I lubed first with T/C Bore Butter. Bullets were 158 grain RN lead. It was a fairly tight fit, you kinda need a short starter, but the fit loosens up a bit as the paper gets either cut or compressed on the lands.

Target was a soda can filled with water thrown as far as I could toss it underhand from the back porch.... maybe twenty yards. Yeah, I'm a wimp. Can landed on its side in the snow. Didn't want to go out to right it because I am a wimp. Three shots. All missed, but made the same groove in the snow, steady wind blowing from right to left. Wind could have been a factor, but most likely it was my bad shooting.

All in all, I would say it is possible, but needs more development. I will perhaps try again in the spring. Because I am a wimp.

 

[ResearchPress]

Well, I tried it. Used 20 grains of 3f Old Eynsford. Paper patched with vintage manifold copy paper... basically onionskin. Two wraps moistened with water and flour, then let dry at least overnight. Before loading, I lubed first with T/C Bore Butter. Bullets were 158 grain RN lead. It was a fairly tight fit, you kinda need a short starter, but the fit loosens up a bit as the paper gets either cut or compressed on the lands.

Why was flour added? Similarly, why the Bore Butter? You run the risk of sticking the paper to the bullet. The paper patch should be cut by the rifling on firing and fall from the bullet as it leaves the barrel. My (.45) rifles I shoot with paper patch bullet have shallow groove rifling. Barrel is cleaned between shots. I wet wrap my bullets, but just with water.

David

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Why was flour added? Similarly, why the Bore Butter? You run the risk of sticking the paper to the bullet. The paper patch should be cut by the rifling on firing and fall from the bullet as it leaves the barrel. My (.45) rifles I shoot with paper patch bullet have shallow groove rifling. Barrel is cleaned between shots. I wet wrap my bullets, but just with water.

David

Flour and water basically make wheat paste... what they used to use to glue wall paper to walls. I used it because long ago and far away I heard that was how it was done. Bore Butter was used to keep any fowling soft and to make the bullet slide down the bore easier. I don't know if the paper patch stuck to the bullet or not, but I kind of doubt it. In spring when I try this again, I'll look for patch remnants. Right now white paper on snow would be pretty hard to find.

I had a youngster out last Sunday who made up some paper cartridges that were dipped in beeswax. Bullets looked like minieballs with a clay plug in the base. They were loaded by tearing off the top, pouring the powder in and then starting the bullet from the beeswax end of the cartridge. When the bullet was deep enough, he broke the unwaxed remnant of the cartridge off and rammed the projectile with the waxed cartridge remnant.

We fired four shots from a vintage gun that used musket caps to ignite 70 grains 2f black powder. He let me shoot one round. Was like firing a .45-70. We did find some cartridge remnants. These bullets were sized specifically for this gun, rather than being a hit & miss experiment I did.

All in all, while it was an interesting idea, it is much easier to shoot such bullet in a .45 caliber sabot through another gun I have... albeit more expensive.

 

[ResearchPress]

Flour and water basically make wheat paste... what they used to use to glue wall paper to walls. I used it because long ago and far away I heard that was how it was done. Bore Butter was used to keep any fowling soft and to make the bullet slide down the bore easier. I don't know if the paper patch stuck to the bullet or not, but I kind of doubt it. In spring when I try this again, I'll look for patch remnants. Right now white paper on snow would be pretty hard to find.

Yes, that was my concern - you’re making a paste to stick paper to bullet. I prefer patching my bullets with wet paper (it gives most consistent wrap for me), while some use dry. I would not recommend using anything that would stick the paper to the bullet, especially with such a light bullet as yours. You want the paper to fall away without disturbing the path of the bullet. I’m shooting 530 - 550 grain paper patched bullets in competition out to 1200 yards. No one I shoot with does anything that may risk sticking paper to bullet. Patched bullet is just under bore size and takes little effort to load - that way risk of damage to wrap, or worse still pushing the bullet through it, is minimised.

I had a youngster out last Sunday who made up some paper cartridges that were dipped in beeswax. Bullets looked like minieballs with a clay plug in the base. They were loaded by tearing off the top, pouring the powder in and then starting the bullet from the beeswax end of the cartridge. When the bullet was deep enough, he broke the unwaxed remnant of the cartridge off and rammed the projectile with the waxed cartridge remnant.

Yes, sounds typical of a cartridge for a rifle firing Minie bullet - worked well for a large bore military cartridge.

David

 

[Sun City]

IMO traditional muzzle loading is RB only! PP great for Sharps rifles but not discussed here and same goes for Inline! Guess one could say I'm biased.....which I will admit!

 

[ResearchPress]

IMO traditional muzzle loading is RB only! PP great for Sharps rifles but not discussed here and same goes for Inline! Guess one could say I'm biased.....which I will admit!

So why are you even reading this thread... let alone actually joining the discussion...

Funny.

David

 

[Uncle Miltie]

IMO traditional muzzle loading is RB only! PP great for Sharps rifles but not discussed here and same goes for Inline! Guess one could say I'm biased.....which I will admit!

For me they must be flintlocks because percussion caps came into use the same time as cloth patched bullets....

 

[Idaho Ron]

I have a couple of hundred or more 45 caliber conical bullets designed for paper patching. To accommodate for the patching, the actual bullet diameter is under .458, and varies somewhat depending on bullet weight, etc. Bullet weights vary from 450-550 grains. I owned at one time a percussion rifle built for such bullets. The twist I believe was around 1/16. My question here is it possible to use such bullets in a 45 caliber muzzleloader built for patched round balls? I have such a rifle with a 1/48 twist. I am guessing that accuracy would be the first issue. The other issue would be the powder charge?

Some have danced around the truth because they are being kind and don't wish to hurt your feelings.

The 1-48 twist is not going to come anywhere close to stabilizing a bullet of that size. I'm sorry if that is the answer that doesn't fit your line of thinking.

If you only wish to hit the side of a barn, I will Suggest. Go inside the barn to shoot it.