paper patching bullets

[timothy prouty]

Is the492bullet before you wrapped or not? Try this. Take a 3/8 brass or wood dowel and cut it to a 6in length and put it down the barrel so you don't bottom out the bullet and get it stuck at the breach. Then you put the bullet halfway down the barrel and take a ball puller and pull it out to see how hard it is to go down and to come up. The dowel would be a stopper and if you use a brass dowel you can use it as a hammer to knock the bullet back out.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

im going to write a little about my experieces with pp bullets in a muzzleloader. in a 1/18 twist 45 cal the most accurate is 450 to 475 grains in weight.45 cal handle both double wrap well as single wrap well as described by cannon ball 1. a 50 cal i have found out is a different ball game. they like the single wrap as the double wrap doesnt work as well with them. also never wet you paper with pp muzzleloading bullet, put the paper in the double wrap on dry. one doesnt need to use anyother paper than number 9 all wood fiber paper. never use lube on your paperpatched bullets. now their is another way to patch 45 cal and other. soak the paper in a mixture of water and water soluble paper glue. dont bother to cut at a angle the paper, just rectangular cut it. put on the bullet and only twist a little on the excess for the base. place the bullet seam down and let dry good. then twist the dry tails and clip close to the base. then with something really sharp cut through the paper from the top to almost the base. the paper will stay intact. put it on top of a wad and then down the barrel this is not a new method, it was done in the late 1800/s. ive never had a pp bullet fail me, ever. chase single wrap for 50 cal or 54 cal. double wrap either way for 45 and below. it is so fool proof it is almost boring. i never ever use anything but all wood fiber paper. i never cut the paper at a angle and only use rectangular cut paper. thats my experience with pp and never ever had to work up a load. they all shot for me perfectly every time.

 

[ResearchPress]

BlackHillsBob, you don't say what distance you are shooting at, but 450-475 grain is light for long range shooting. It may be the "most accurate" for your needs but I use a 530 grain bullet in a 1/18 twist 45 with match winning results (upto 1000 yards). I use a little heavier bullet in my .461 (again, match winning). Where I also differ from you is using a damp patch when double wrapping. Things aren't perhaps as definitive as you suggest.

David

 

[BlackHillsBob]

your are correct and glad you brought that up, thier was a shooter 25 years ago who won matches at 1000 yards with a 475 gain bullet, alot in south africa. we used to talk alot on he phone but he is gone now as he was then what my age is now. dont remember his name but he was a machinest who made loading equipment. then in wyoming i met a 2 guys who did well, never new their names but we talked alot. both had really good rifles and 1/18 twist 45 barrels, one shot a 500 grain milatary bullet and the other shot a milatary 400 grain bullet to 800 to 1000 yards. both did very well in matches. now as to the muzzle loader i had with a 36 inch 1/18 twist douglas barell. that gun shot any thing i put into it pp/ed. 400 to 500 grain. never shot at 1000 yards but i blew up a lot of pumkins way out their and prairie dog mounds. im not a contest person except i compete against me. my info may have value or not but it works for me. the two modern custom built muzzleloader shooters used a 425 grain bullet and made 3 inch groups back mid east some wheres. it was a unusual bullet. it had a long pointed nose and at my request a thick lip on the base but quite a deep hollow base. they single wrapped it with 18 pound freezer wrap paper. with a 60 thousand poly wad behind it. they used 125 grains by volume of black horn 209 powder behind the bullet. a very unusual set up to say the least. they called me a lot then, first they cast the bullet out of 20 to 1 lead. had trouble with the nose bending over. couldnt have that. i suggested a little 700 degree silver solder and they tried that and it worked. the bullets sure looked nice and cast nice with the silver mixed to the 20 to 1 mix. one of the brothers guns was a 1/18 twist and the others was a 1/20 twist. that bullet shot well. the barres were made by shein or something like that and were very high quality. they said every one at the matches would say that bullet wont do anything but when they won the other shooters would say anything but that it was just a fluke. i have a stevens 44 and 1/2 with a gain twist barrel in 1/22 twist. i shoot a 425 grain pp bullet i swage my self. i double wrap those. my barrel is free bored. my muzzle loader is a 50 cal 1/24 twist, tired of shooting heavy bullets so when i get a little extra cash im rebarreling it to may be a 45 roundball target bench gun. thats all i have to say, may help some or it may not, just shared my experiences.

 

[Sinner]

Very interesting thread. Zonie, have you tried the Lee R.E.A.L. bullets? I'm wondering if the paper patched shoot better, or why go through the extra steps required?

 

[BlackHillsBob]

years ago i resized some real bullets and used yellow legal pad paper. they shot very well.

 

[M. De Land]

I've done a bit of paper patching with black powder cartridge guns but don't really have much experience with it and none at all in muzzle loaders. I do have friends that have a great deal of experience with both and pass on useful information.
Most true paper patch bullets do not have any lube grooves at all. The patch is some times lubed or they shoot a grease cookie under neath in or with a felt wad.
Muzzle loaders are patched usually to bore diameter and wiped between shots. When false muzzles are used they are often strip paper patched instead of one piece wrapped.
One of the tweaks to adjust for accuracy is to limit the length of the patch over the bullet ogive ( bullet nose taper).

 

[M. De Land]

I use the Chase method (single wrap) and I use 20 lb. computer paper. That being said I have found all 20 lb. is not the same thickness. One brand of 20 lb. was .0040 thickness and other brand was .0035 and believe me it does make a big difference. I size my bullets and the wad needs to go down the barrel the same time as the bullet to keep the paper from slipping. The tolerances seem to be more critical with this type of system. The bullet needs to slide down the barrel with some resistance, but not much. The last time at the range I got a 3 1/4" group at 300 yards on a bench.
Next time might not be that good.

As of this date I have not figured out the secret to get a good group with the double wrap system, but I'll keep trying.

How do you get the chase patch into the muzzle without crumpling it? False or coned muzzle perhaps? That's very interesting how you have adapted this to muzzle loaders.
Chase patching was invented for breech seated bullets in cartridge guns and virtually replaced wrapped patching in competitive circles with in five years of it's introduction.
It produced superior accuracy with breech seated bullets in the Schutzen era.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

the paper is rectangle. put it around the bullet so the seams meet. it should be long enough so when you hold the seams together and fold the paper over the base bit by bit it covers about 3/4 of the base. to load put on top a 6o thousands wad. when you push the bullet down the barrel it stays on the wad intact. i use either freezer wrap paper which is 18 pound or 20 pound computer paper. do not lube. the freezer wrap paper is poly coated so that is out side to the bore. this method is one that will never fail you the paper usually comes of in one piece at the muzzle just with lines cut into it from the lands. the groups at 100 yards are very very tight. as you can see it isnt rocket science, it is very very simple. i wouldnt shoot a 300 grain 50 cal bullet in a 1/28 twist muzzleloader. way too short, needs a 500 to 550 and even a 600 grain bullet to do good. a 1/18 twist in a 45 will shoot 400 to 550 very well. to me this is the ideal method to hunt the real big game were things in the woods can eat you. i only used 70 grains of real black behind a pp 724 grain 50 cal bullet, it came out of the barrel at 1200 ft per sec. recoil wasnt bad either.

 

[Zonie]

Very interesting thread. Zonie, have you tried the Lee R.E.A.L. bullets? I'm wondering if the paper patched shoot better, or why go through the extra steps required?

There is no REAL bullet made in .40 caliber.

The barrel on the rifle I shoot the paper patched bullets in has a bore size of .400 and the rifling grooves are .0015 deep.

The barrel was made by Phil Quaglino, a man who used to have quite a reputation for his excellent barrels, guns and his marksmanship.

I didn't request this barrel. It was a part of a Schuetzen "kit" I bought from Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply.
After building it, I also built a carrying case for it.

 

[George]

When was paper patching first done, anyone know?

Spence

 

[Carbon 6]

The first fully self-contained paper cartridge was invented on year after the percussion cap. in 1808. paper patched projectiles go back much further, paper cartridges to the 14th century.

 

[Sinner]

Beautiful rifle Zonie! Nice case too. I was for some reason thinking it was a .45. I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention.

 

[M. De Land]

There is no REAL bullet made in .40 caliber.

The barrel on the rifle I shoot the paper patched bullets in has a bore size of .400 and the rifling grooves are .0015 deep.

The barrel was made by Phil Quaglino, a man who used to have quite a reputation for his excellent barrels, guns and his marksmanship.

I didn't request this barrel. It was a part of a Schuetzen "kit" I bought from Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply.
After building it, I also built a carrying case for it.

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Boy, that is really shallow rifling Zonie ! Most cartridge PP barrels are.004 deep per side or there about.

 

[cannonball1]

A lot of the old slow twist barrels had riflings at .015. Sure you didn't get the decimal in the wrong place.

Boy, that is really shallow rifling Zonie ! Most cartridge PP barrels are.004 deep per side or there about.

 

[Eterry]

Zonie said.
There is no REAL bullet made in .40 caliber.

I have a custom 40 cal REAL Mold from Lee Precision.
Look for REAL bullets soon in the classifieds

 

[Widows Son]

I’m blowing the dust off this thread rather than start a new one about a similar thing.

‘I’m very early into my education and training with paper patching bullets and long range target shooting. My primary question about paper patches is why are the ends cut at an angle and just not kept square? Is there some ballistic reason? Simply a tradition?

 

[nkbj]

The angle cut ends on paper patches are there for the front corner of the patch to be at much greater than a right angle. That is especially advantageous in a firearm using brass cartridges. Less important with a muzzleloaded projectile

 

[cannonball1]

How do you get the chase patch into the muzzle without crumpling it? False or coned muzzle perhaps? That's very interesting how you have adapted this to muzzle loaders.
Chase patching was invented for breech seated bullets in cartridge guns and virtually replaced wrapped patching in competitive circles with in five years of it's introduction.
It produced superior accuracy with breech seated bullets in the Schutzen era.

Here are some photos of the bullets. I size the bullet first, then the single wrap. I also put a drop of elmers glue in the center of the end with the cut off piece fo Q-Tip. The bullets have really been accurate and I have never been able to get a group with the double wrap method. With this method they need to slide down the barrel with very little effort from the ramrod. I sure wish some of you would try this method and tell us how you made out. I have the starting of cataracts and it is harder to see at 200 yards+

 

[cannonball1]

The bullet is flat base and I also use a fiber or plastic wad over the powder. I have found the best loading method came from Fleener - put the powder and wad down all of the way on a dirty barrel, then a damp cleaning patch and dry patch so the bullet goes down on a fairly clean barrel.