Parker Hale 1858 Enfield .58 caliber, 2 band

[Enfield 1858]

 

[ken.clements]

ok I'm jealous :bow:

can you give me some data? 3 or 5 rifleing?

 

[Enfield 1858]

Parker Hale 1858 Enfield .58 (.577) caliber, 2 band Naval rifle, 5 groove progressive depth, 1 in 48 twist, 33 inch barrel made in Birmingham England. Walnut stock. Made sometime in the 1970's. It has a ladder sight out to 1,100 yds.

I inherited the rifle, read up on it, purchased the accessories and have shot it about five times.
I've never shot it with anyone that has experience with this type of gun, but I'm learning a lot from this forum.

According to the instructions that came with the gun "Loading and maintenance instructions for the Enfield rifle by Parke Hale" the recommended load is 50-70 grains of FFg or Fg for average conditions.
The recommended bullet is a minie bullet of .575" dia. Use the Parker Hale 560 grain mould for best results.

"Your Enfield rifle has been proofed at the Birmingham proof house and is marked with a service load of 3 1/2 drams of powder and a 536 grain bullet.
As a guarantee of safety however, it has in fact withstood a charge of 7 drams with a 724 grain bullet."

It also came with an "Instruction of Musketry"
manual. (published in 1972)

I've read that there are symbols on the barrel that tell what year it was made, but I've never removed the barrel.

The rifling at the muzzle is sharp and a .570 ball with .010 patch has to be started with a mallet and short starter. By the time it's seated on the powder it's barely snug.

I've ordered a coning tool and hopefully after it's coned I'll be able to use a thicker patch, either .015 or .018 for a tighter ball/patch combination, without tearing the patch on the rifling and be able to shoot more accurately on a consistent basis.

I'm interested in using it for target practice and deer hunting with the round ball at 50 yds or less, as my eyes aren't quite what the use to be.

It's a beautiful gun and I'm lucky to have it.
It's more of a gun than I am a shooter/marksman.

 

[ken.clements]

very nice... :thumbsup:

 

[Enfield 1858]

From the MLAGB

If you have taken the barrel out of the stock
look underneath, a few inches from the breech, for the "secret " Birminghan Proof House date mark.

Between 1950 and 1974 it consisted of crossed scepters (they look life crossed swords) with "B" inthe right hand quadrant, a number, "1" or "2" or "3" at the bottom denoting the seniority of the person conducting the proof, and a letter of the alphabet on the left. "A" was1950 to"Z" 1974 omitting "I".

If it was made in 1975 or later the same arrangements of letters and numbers will be found in a circle. This mark is very small, about an eighth of an inch or three millimeters high.

 

[Enfield 1858]

Darn, wish I would of seen this earlier.

"From an estate sale, I picked up this 560 grain Parker-Hale minie ball bullet mold. This is the actual mold that would have come with your Parker-Hale .577 Enfield 1861 Artillery Carbine, or .577 1858 rifle, or original .58 and .577 cal rifles, or other 58 caliber reproduction rifles. Its in great condition. I have one just like it. Unfortunately, it did not have the Parker-Hale handles. I read that RCBS multi-mold handles can be modified to work, but not sure. Does NOT include box or handles. Includes copy of instructions from Parker-Hale. Guaranteed of course. Shipping charges of $8.00 paid by buyer. PAYPAL or Money Order."

Gun broker .com

 

[TFoley]

Parker Hale 1858 Enfield .58 (.577) caliber, 2 band Naval rifle, 5 groove progressive depth, 1 in 48 twist, 33 inch barrel made in Birmingham England. Walnut stock. Made sometime in the 1970's. It has a ladder sight out to 1,100 yds.

I inherited the rifle, read up on it, purchased the accessories and have shot it about five times.
I've never shot it with anyone that has experience with this type of gun, but I'm learning a lot from this forum.

According to the instructions that came with the gun "Loading and maintenance instructions for the Enfield rifle by Parke Hale" the recommended load is 50-70 grains of FFg or Fg for average conditions.
The recommended bullet is a minie bullet of .575" dia. Use the Parker Hale 560 grain mould for best results.

"Your Enfield rifle has been proofed at the Birmingham proof house and is marked with a service load of 3 1/2 drams of powder and a 536 grain bullet.
As a guarantee of safety however, it has in fact withstood a charge of 7 drams with a 724 grain bullet."

It also came with an "Instruction of Musketry"
manual. (published in 1972)

I've read that there are symbols on the barrel that tell what year it was made, but I've never removed the barrel.

The rifling at the muzzle is sharp and a .570 ball with .010 patch has to be started with a mallet and short starter. By the time it's seated on the powder it's barely snug.

I've ordered a coning tool and hopefully after it's coned I'll be able to use a thicker patch, either .015 or .018 for a tighter ball/patch combination, without tearing the patch on the rifling and be able to shoot more accurately on a consistent basis.

I'm interested in using it for target practice and deer hunting with the round ball at 50 yds or less, as my eyes aren't quite what the use to be.

It's a beautiful gun and I'm lucky to have it.
It's more of a gun than I am a shooter/marksman.

Sir - I'm glad that you are enjoying your prize, but to tell the truth, it really wasn't made for a ball, patched or otherwise, but for the Minie bullet that the instructions talk about. The reason why the ball starts off hard and then gets easier is that this gun has progressive-depth rifling.

One dram, BTW, is 27.34gr.

I shoot mine out to 600 yards with a 535gr Minie bullet on top of just 70gr of FFg.

You can bet you life that the correct projectile will do the biz on anything that gets in the way.

I'm sure that Mr Minshall will be along in a minute with better advice than mine.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

 

[Enfield 1858]

Thank you for your post.


Do you know where I can buy the correct minie for my rifle?

Does your minie fall freely to the powder when loading as mine does? Do you have any concerns that it may move off the powder when hunting especially from a tree stand?

The minie I was using was the Enfield .577, Lyman 577-611 hollow base, 530 grain. I believe the skirt on it was much thicker than the original minie made for the gun.



I'm mainly interested in using it for target practice and hunting at 50 yds.

I was quite accurate and did have a tight group on one occasion while target practicing with the patch and ball at 50 yds.
I understand the 1 in 48 twist is good for a minie or round ball. I guess it's the progressive depth rifling that's giving me the inconsistent accuracy.

I have no interest or place to shoot at 600 yds.

I have a different gun with a scope for longer distances as my eyes are not that good anymore and wouldn't want to wound a deer and have it get away.

 

[PaulN/KS]

That's a nice rifle, I really like the looks of the 2 band Enfield. Plus, the fact that it's a Parker Hale is pretty cool as well...

 

[ian45662]

Try the 510 grain minie. You can buy a few from track of the wolf to try out before you buy the mold and you could try a couple other hollow base designs. The heave minie you are shooting now does have a pretty thick skirt.I shoot the 510 minie and I use 40 grains of 3F goex for a target load. I also shoot the Hodgon mold with the same load. I am not shooting an enfied but the concept is pretty much the same. I would argue against coning the muzzle because that gun is really not set up to shoot round ball in the first place.

 

[ken.clements]

Thank you for your post.


Do you know where I can buy the correct minie for my rifle?

Does your minie fall freely to the powder when loading as mine does? Do you have any concerns that it may move off the powder when hunting especially from a tree stand?

The minie I was using was the Enfield .577, Lyman 577-611 hollow base, 530 grain. I believe the skirt on it was much thicker than the original minie made for the gun.



I'm mainly interested in using it for target practice and hunting at 50 yds.

I was quite accurate and did have a tight group on one occasion while target practicing with the patch and ball at 50 yds.
I understand the 1 in 48 twist is good for a minie or round ball. I guess it's the progressive depth rifling that's giving me the inconsistent accuracy.

I have no interest or place to shoot at 600 yds.

I have a different gun with a scope for longer distances as my eyes are not that good anymore and wouldn't want to wound a deer and have it get away.

You probably have much more expierence than I, but are you sizing (swaging?) and weighing your minie’s? This makes a huge difference if you are target shooting
I use 566 grain lyman PH in a Zouave (no progressive rifleing) with 52.5 grains Swiss 2.
I’m hoping that a couple of expierenced Enfield shooters will write tips and tricks here.
I believe because of the progressive rifleing the military’s minie’s were paperpatched. Not only were the Minie’s cold pressed (Andersons Bullet Maschine) which gave a uniform size and weight, but they were placed nose down in paper cartridge. This means rip the paper cartridge, pour the powder down, turn the cartridge around and place the minie in the muzzle, rip off the extra paper and ran everything down. This maybe could help with a progressive rifleing and holding everything place. I have the same problem with my 1-48 twist (muskatoon) trying to find something that works well. I’ve tried up to 52.5 grains with not much luck. I’m going to (as soon as the range is open) try up to 65 grains (with lyman PH)and see what happens.
I also will try lyman OS, Rapine 460, lyman 460 (which I have). This week I am getting a "Blue Grey" mould (anybody have any expierience with it?)and a Lee mould.

 

[ken.clements]

Parker Hale 1858 Enfield .58 (.577) caliber, 2 band Naval rifle, 5 groove progressive depth, 1 in 48 twist, 33 inch barrel made in Birmingham England. Walnut stock. Made sometime in the 1970's. It has a ladder sight out to 1,100 yds.

I inherited the rifle, read up on it, purchased the accessories and have shot it about five times.
I've never shot it with anyone that has experience with this type of gun, but I'm learning a lot from this forum.

According to the instructions that came with the gun "Loading and maintenance instructions for the Enfield rifle by Parke Hale" the recommended load is 50-70 grains of FFg or Fg for average conditions.
The recommended bullet is a minie bullet of .575" dia. Use the Parker Hale 560 grain mould for best results.

"Your Enfield rifle has been proofed at the Birmingham proof house and is marked with a service load of 3 1/2 drams of powder and a 536 grain bullet.
As a guarantee of safety however, it has in fact withstood a charge of 7 drams with a 724 grain bullet."

It also came with an "Instruction of Musketry"
manual. (published in 1972)

I've read that there are symbols on the barrel that tell what year it was made, but I've never removed the barrel.

The rifling at the muzzle is sharp and a .570 ball with .010 patch has to be started with a mallet and short starter. By the time it's seated on the powder it's barely snug.

I've ordered a coning tool and hopefully after it's coned I'll be able to use a thicker patch, either .015 or .018 for a tighter ball/patch combination, without tearing the patch on the rifling and be able to shoot more accurately on a consistent basis.

I'm interested in using it for target practice and deer hunting with the round ball at 50 yds or less, as my eyes aren't quite what the use to be.

It's a beautiful gun and I'm lucky to have it.
It's more of a gun than I am a shooter/marksman.

Sir - I'm glad that you are enjoying your prize, but to tell the truth, it really wasn't made for a ball, patched or otherwise, but for the Minie bullet that the instructions talk about. The reason why the ball starts off hard and then gets easier is that this gun has progressive-depth rifling.

One dram, BTW, is 27.34gr.

I shoot mine out to 600 yards with a 535gr Minie bullet on top of just 70gr of FFg.

You can bet you life that the correct projectile will do the biz on anything that gets in the way.

I'm sure that Mr Minshall will be along in a minute with better advice than mine.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

service load 95 grains? I would love to know if this was with Pritchard (solid base) minie or a hollow base....can anyone help me here?

 

[TFoley]

service load 95 grains? I would love to know if this was with Pritchard (solid base) minie or a hollow base....can anyone help me here?

Sir - the correct service load for the P53 and its derivatives was/is two and one half drams - 68gr.

This is the load that both I and Mr Minshall have been posting here for years on end.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

 

[ken.clements]

I guess I better myself in "rithmatic :redface:

 

[Enfield 1858]

Thanks, I've ordered 25 of the .575" Lyman 575-213, 510 grain, hollow base minies with the thin skirt, from track of the wolf. I'll practice with FFg from 50 to 70 grains, in 5 grain increments.
I've read where some people use lube in the base only, and some in the grooves only. I guess I'll try both ways.

 

[TFoley]

Thanks, I've ordered 25 of the .575" Lyman 575-213, 510 grain, hollow base minies with the thin skirt, from track of the wolf. I'll practice with FFg from 50 to 70 grains, in 5 grain increments.
I've read where some people use lube in the base only, and some in the grooves only. I guess I'll try both ways.

Sir - unlike many people here, I'm a comparative newcomer to BP shooting having gotten into it in the early 70's. From my POV it seems rather odd to put lube inside a Minie bullet as it might just contaminate the load - maybe I'm wrong there. The outside of the bullet gets a good slathering of my chosen lube - a made-up concoction of 50/50 beeswax and neat's foot oil that makes a good stiff lube a bit like lard. It doesn't get warm enough here in yUK to make it runny, so depending on where you are, depends what kind of external lube you use.

The ideal Minie bullet 'fit' is one where it just eases down with thumb pressure into the muzzle - it should then ease down in one clean movement onto the charge - about 30-40 pounds pressure is all that is needed. When I was learning to shoot I used a set of bathroom scales [yes, it's true] to make sure that my loading pressure was regular.

So long as you maintain a good habitual pressure on your load you should be good to go. Remember, if you can, to wipe out between shots. A hard ring of caked products sets up about six-eight inches up the bore from the chamber that will revent you from putting the bullet all the way down on the charge - read what happens if you ignore the removal of this caked-up ring of crud in the thread above - how to remove a stuck Minie bullet...

Good luck, and let us know how you get on.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

 

[Enfield 1858]

"it should then ease down in one clean movement onto the charge - about 30-40 pounds pressure is all that is needed."

When I loaded the .577 minies they scraped on the rifling at the muzzle, then free fell to the powder when half way down the barrel.

Now I've ordered .575 dia and I think they will just free fall all the way down to the powder.

Maybe if I remove the sharp rifling at the muzzle and use the .577?

 

[TFoley]

"it should then ease down in one clean movement onto the charge - about 30-40 pounds pressure is all that is needed."

When I loaded the .577 minies they scraped on the rifling at the muzzle, then free fell to the powder when half way down the barrel.

Now I've ordered .575 dia and I think they will just free fall all the way down to the powder.

Maybe if I remove the sharp rifling at the muzzle and use the .577?

Sir - it took a lot of work and engenuity to make that muzzle like that, so please do not damage it. That rifling needs to be intact all the way to the end of the barrel, even a nick in the rifling at the muzzle will tend to put the bullet off course.

Let's hear how you get on with the various sizes of bullet you have ordered before we suggest anything else. My rifle, the same as yours, certainly gets easier to load the Minie bullet about half way down, but it doesn't fall the way that you describe, even with a couple of thousand shots down it. What you are describing sounds suspiciously like a bulged barrel to me. Can you lay a long metal straight edge the length of the barrel and take a sight down it and check it for me?

tac, concerned.
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

PS - FWIW, I shoot the Lyman .578" bullet in my original P-H.

 

[Enfield 1858]

Tac, Thanks for your reply and patience.
I definetly need to shoot this gun a whole lot more.
So you are shooting a .578", 535 grain minie.
Are you buying them or making them?
Do you know what year your gun was made?

I think the barrel is not bulged or been shot very much at all.

I'll have to remove the barrel from stock to check it with a straight edge. I doubt it's ever been removed.

I still think the sharp lands at the muzzle are scraping off some lead from the minie causing it to fall to the powder when it's about half way down.
I found this under another topic.-------------------------------------------------------------------

"I have a .54 Lyman Deerstalker, I have been shooting 385 gr. great plains bullets. They shoot well but are fairly loose in the barrel. They seem to fit a bit tighter in the upper 3/4 of barrel but when the bullet gets down towards powder charge it loosens up quite a bit. anybody have any suggestions.



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marmotslayer
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01-09-11 01:19 PM - Post#940747

In response to Willy1

It starts feeling looser cause as it goes down it engraves into the rifling more. Some guys put a card over the top to keep it in place but you would just have to try that to see if it works.

I quit shooting conicals after I and a friend both had first hand experience with the bullets moving around in the bore.



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BrownBear
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01-09-11 08:14 PM - Post#941002

In response to Willy1

I've heard of match shooters wrapping their conicals in a turn or two of Teflon tape, the kind for pipe joints, approximately like paper patching bullets. It sounds like a reasonable idea, since the stuff is so thin and you could control added diameter pretty easily."

 

[TFoley]

Tac, Thanks for your reply and patience.
I definetly need to shoot this gun a whole lot more.
So you are shooting a .578", 535 grain minie.
Are you buying them or making them?
Do you know what year your gun was made?

I think the barrel is not bulged or been shot very much at all.

I'll have to remove the barrel from stock to check it with a straight edge. I doubt it's ever been removed.

I still think the sharp lands at the muzzle are scraping off some lead from the minie causing it to fall to the powder when it's about half way down.
I found this under another topic.-------------------------------------------------------------------

"I have a .54 Lyman Deerstalker, I have been shooting 385 gr. great plains bullets. They shoot well but are fairly loose in the barrel. They seem to fit a bit tighter in the upper 3/4 of barrel but when the bullet gets down towards powder charge it loosens up quite a bit. anybody have any suggestions.

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marmotslayer
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01-09-11 01:19 PM - Post#940747

In response to Willy1

It starts feeling looser cause as it goes down it engraves into the rifling more. Some guys put a card over the top to keep it in place but you would just have to try that to see if it works.

I quit shooting conicals after I and a friend both had first hand experience with the bullets moving around in the bore.

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BrownBear
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01-09-11 08:14 PM - Post#941002

In response to Willy1

I've heard of match shooters wrapping their conicals in a turn or two of Teflon tape, the kind for pipe joints, approximately like paper patching bullets. It sounds like a reasonable idea, since the stuff is so thin and you could control added diameter pretty easily."

Sir - my mould is made by Lyman - presently with a friend who is casting up his year's supply.

I've never heard of anybody using anything around the bullets they shoot to make them fit - doesn't mean you shouldn't, just means I've never heard of it. Here in UK there are literally hundreds of folks who shoot a P53 of one kind or another in competitions, rather than re-enactment blank firing, although there are a goodly number of them too.

I realize that you don't want to shoot long-range anything, but then I don't mostly, either. Hundred yards is most of the shooting that I do these days. I find that getting all my shots into four inches off my elbows makes me happy - standing shooting is not permitted on most ranges longer than 25m/yds here.

All I've ever seen is folks getting the right size bullets that fit, and shooting them. Mr Minshall, a frequent poster here, is a consummately excellent top-class competition shot and UK long-range muzzle-loading shooting record-holder. He does not use anything around HIS bullets, I'm pretty certain. My gun was proofed in 1986. Prolly made the same year.

Sorry I can't be of any real help to ya.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund