Parker Hale 1858 Enfield .58 caliber, 2 band

[Enfield 1858]

I tried crisco in the base of the Pritchett minies and It didn't seem to work very well.

I tried 50/50 beeswax and bore butter and poured the liquid to half fill the cavity. It hardened up and seem to work good on the few I tried.
Need to shoot more of them.



"It recommends to lube the skirt and cavity, which I do."

 

[paulvallandigham]

Fill the cavity, and use an OP wad( some call them BASE WADS) behind the bullet- consider using a bore diameter piece of wax paper to keep the wad from sticking to the filler in the cavity--- and see what accuracy you get.

This is the kind of thing the top target shooters are doing when they shoot hollow based bullets.

Remember that these bullets HAVE to be SIZED to within .001" to .002" of your bore to get best accuracy. And, you want to be shooting the bullets with the thicker skirts, so that the skirts aren't damaged, or broken, as they expand into the rifling.

If you lube the bore with a greased cleaning patch run down on top of the bullet, and then out again, you not only help keep the barrel from rusting, and the fouling softer, but you add grease to those grease grooves in the bullet, to help it lube and seal the bore around the bullet's base( skirt). That will give you more consistent MV for each consecutive shot.

 

[ResearchPress]

I'm not aware of anyone I shoot with in the UK using wads with Minie bullets. We shoot Enfields out to 800 yards in competition.

What's the function of the lube in the base cavity if backed by a waxed paper and over powder wad? Won't they just seal the lube in the bullet base until it exits the barrel, and introduce a variable?

Also curious about 'lubing' the bore above the bullet. Again, it would appear to introduce another variable unless one is very consistent with application of the lube. BTW, if competition shooting some events do not permit cleaning between shots (which this would be considered as) in military rifle events.

I get good enough results (win competitions) shooting with dip lubed Minie bullets. No lube in the base and the bullet seated directly on the powder. No cleaning between shots.

David

 

[paulvallandigham]

A lot of different kinds of substances have been used to "Plug" the hollow base of minies over the centuries, and I can't comment on one over the other. However, the wax wad is intended to keep the base wad from sticking to the grease, the "theory" being that if the wax paper DOES adhere to the base of the bullet during flight, that its weight will have a marginal influence on accuracy, compared to the weight of an OP or "Base" wad. Actually, considering the RPMs of those bullets, not even that light wax paper sheet stayed on the base of those HB bullets very far out of the muzzle.

As to lubing the barrel, It ACTUALLY REMOVES a variable in shooting grease groove( and greased PRB) projectiles down the barrel.

One of the reasons that cast bullet makers have spent thousands of hours trying to design an effect cast bullet, with sufficient lube to grease the barrel from breech to muzzle, consistently, is because many bullets simply do Not carry enough grease( or the right kind of grease) to both withstand the hot temperatures, AND grease the bore. Even with Muzzleloaders, using PRB, you get "wet" and Dry" spots because of the inefficiency of the lubed patch wetting the entire length of the bore, both lands and Grooves.

Those dry spots acts like potholes in a roadway. When I first tried this Lube the bore After loading, I was of the same opinion and belief as you have expressed, David. I was skeptical beyond belief! So, I hauled out and set up my chronograph, and fired "before and after" PRBs out of my rifle, and then out of my fowler.

In both cases, not only did greasing the bore increase MV consistently, about a hundred fps, but my SDV DROPPED in half.

I have since learned that this practice of lubing the bore after seating the bullet in MLers is used by some of the better target shooters, whether they are shooting PRB, or bullets, with and without hollow bases. I even read an old article that mentioned that single shot rifle shooters shooting cast bullets with "semi-smokeless" powder would lube their bores before putting their cartridges in the chambers.

Obviously, this would not work well in the field, particularly in combat, and that is why so much work was done trying to find the right depth, and width for grease grooves, as well as How many grease grooves are needed for a given caliber bullet.

All that work on military ammo using lead bullets came to an abrupt halt when the Geneva Convention on small arms ammunition was signed by countries in the late 1890s. Even before that, countries were using steel, and later, copper jackets, on smaller caliber bullets so that velocities could be increased over what was available with black powder, flattening trajectories, and giving accuracy from rifles well past 300 yards.

A look at the old Lyman Cast Bullet catalog shows a wide variety of designs for grease grooves. Reading Elmer Keith's book, " Sixguns" on how he developed his "Semi-wadcutter"- designed pistol bullets by modifying a Thompson bullet design is also a good history in what was being done 100 years ago with lead bullets.

If this works for you, use it; if not, don't. Not all target shooters on this side of the pond are doing this, BTW, based on my personal observations at last year's Sgt. York Chunk Gun Match. ( 3rd weekend in March, at Pall Mall, Tenn.) So, altho I found some positive results in my limited tests, I am still the skeptic. :hatsoff:

 

[ResearchPress]

I still see little function in placing lube in the bullet base cavity only to seal it in place. I would not have confidence that it would either remain wholly in place during the bullets flight or be consumed before it exited the barrel. It appears to be a variable I do not need. Still, if some get the results they are satisfied with in this way, then good luck to them.

Ref. lubing the bore. You refer to wet & dry spots with PRB and inefficiency of the lubed patch wetting the entire length of the bore, lands and grooves. That may be so, but with the Minie bullet in the Enfield where do this 'wet & dry' spots come from? Your testing appears to be limited to PRBs.

Target rifle shooters will often clean their bore before seating the bullet - some clean to the breech, while others seat an an over powder wad then wipe down to that.

All interesting stuff and as you say, if it works for you, use it.

David

 

[TFoley]

I ordered a coning tool from Ed Hamberg but he sent the wrong one and I returned it.
I then e-mailed Joe Wood and was going to order one from him, I included in the e-mail a description on my gun, he said DON'T do it.

I wish someone had told me earlier about not coning my specific gun.

Excuse my iggerance, but if the original designers didn't cone the muzzle. why should you want to do it on a replica?

tac

 

[TFoley]

Fill the cavity, and use an OP wad( some call them BASE WADS) behind the bullet- consider using a bore diameter piece of wax paper to keep the wad from sticking to the filler in the cavity--- and see what accuracy you get.

[b]This is the kind of thing the top target shooters are doing when they shoot hollow based bullets. [/b]

Sir - Mr Minshall IS an international and commonwealth 'top target shooter', and he does none of these things. In fact, as he points out, even cleaning the bore between shots is not permitted in the military match. The real shooters didn't do it, so the replicating shooters don't do it either, and yet they still make the most amazing scores out to 800 yards with the P53 and similar arms. Add to that that the matches are also timed.....

tac

 

[Jason Lewis]

Fill the cavity, and use an OP wad( some call them BASE WADS) behind the bullet- consider using a bore diameter piece of wax paper to keep the wad from sticking to the filler in the cavity--- and see what accuracy you get.

[b]This is the kind of thing the top target shooters are doing when they shoot hollow based bullets. [/b]

Sir - Mr Minshall IS an international and commonwealth 'top target shooter', and he does none of these things. In fact, as he points out, even cleaning the bore between shots is not permitted in the military match. The real shooters didn't do it, so the replicating shooters don't do it either, and yet they still make the most amazing scores out to 800 yards with the P53 and similar arms. Add to that that the matches are also timed.....

tac

really? i didn't think the p53 was that accurate? i thought the p58 was the more accurate of the two rifles. i've only read about both i have no experience with either.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Hollow based bullets were used in many different kinds of guns, both MLers, and breechloaders. They are still shot today,-some simply lubed in the grease grooves present, and others paper patched. The Wax paper "slick" is used to keep any wad from "sticking" to the hollow base- and is also used with plain-based bullets to keep the wads from sticking to the base of these bullets. Wax has a much lower coefficient of friction, than grease, so with the high RPM placed on lead bullets leaving the muzzle, that bit of wax paper tends to leave the base of the bullet very quickly.

I do not have much personal experience shooting hollow based bullets. Mostly, I have spotted targets for other friends who do shoot these kinds of bullets. But, as you well know, spotters are intimately involved in every aspect of load construction, since its the spotter who first sees when a bullets leaves the group, and misses the POA.

My brother gave me some Hollow based, paper patched bullets to try in my Springfield, but I have not done so. I finally have them figured out after several posts about PP bullets, from our own IdahoRon, and now feel Like I may be competent to actually load them correctly, and hit something. I have spent a lot more time shooting cast, plain based bullets in both rifles, and handguns.

FWIW, I am still skeptical about putting grease in those hollow bases, but I have seen some amazing shots made at target matches with that being done. Better shooters than me seem to know how to make that work, and that is why I commented on it.

 

[Enfield 1858]

http://s1131.photobucket.com/albums/m558/Enfield1858/6 targets/

#1 Measured by volume was suppose to be 68g but weighed 75g, this was the last of the FFG. .5768 smooth sided Pritchett minies, 530g, bee/olive oil film dip, cavity half filled with beeswax/bore butter.
Kicks pretty good. Ran out of FFg.

#2 Using FFFg, was all I had.

#3 Started seating bullets better, seems to have closed up group.

#4 switched to .575 P/H 566g, shallow base, pre sized, lube is 50/50 beeswax/olive oil. 3 near bull were seated better.

#5 Getting better.

#6 Took a try at about 90 yds. Need better eyes/ help with eye focus. First 3 circled not seated well.

A friend is letting me borrow his Lyman 505 scale so I can weigh my charges now. Does not have the capacity to weigh my minies though.

The .5768, 530g swaged Pritchetts are $13.48 for 25. They have deep a cavity, .060 skirt, 1.100 in length.

The cast and pre-sized P/H .575, 566g were $9.25 for 25. They have a shallow base, .080 skirt, 1.062 in length.

 

[Enfield 1858]

All the Pritchett minies are .5758 diameter, I marked some targets incorectly and errored in the previous post.

I have some .577 (.5765 actual diamater) pre-sized, 566g, shallow base P/H minies I'll try next. A little bigger than the .575 (.5751-.5752) actual dia.) pre-sized minies I just shot. When I bought these minies they were already sized, too bad they don't come lubed. I'll probably wait until I get some FFg, then weigh the loads.

I have about 15 of the Pritchett minies left.

 

[59sharps]

I did not read all 8 pages of posts so some of this may be a repeat. minnie .001 under bore dia. pure lead only. to measure dia. take an oversized minne. start it down the barrel leaving enough out to grab w/ pliers twist 1/4 turn remove and mike that is your dia. loads that worked for me in mine.
38 grn 3fffg swiss. 42 of goex 3fffg. and 48 of goex 3fffg. I only shot out to 100yrds. minnie I use is the RCBS Hodgens. the lyman PH minnie needed 48 of 3fffg. to work.
lube 50/50 melted beeswax and olive oil

 

[Enfield 1858]

By your method I'm getting .578

The biggest minies I have are .5765

An unlubed minie slides all the way down the barrel in about 3 seconds.

 

[Ian]

Where I shoot in Western Canada we are only allowed to shoot round balls in competition and at distances from 50 to 125yds. my p58 Parker Hale does me very well, the reason I bought it 25yrs ago was because it was a steal ( they were made for conicals and won't shoot balls)I know different out to 200yds cheers Ian.

 

[Enfield 1858]

I believe you have a different rifle than mine.

 

[59sharps]

that should work fine. your at .0015 under close enough. Do you have a sizer. If so I have .580 I can send,you can size them down. you may find the first shot will go where ever it wants to.
I know mine dose.
I see you are in the finger Lakes. try the N-SSA site. there are a few guys and teams out your way.
you can also talk to John at North east trader. he sells siziers, molds and anything else you may need for the PH.

 

[Enfield 1858]

Thanks.

I'm looking at this sizer.

What type of .580 minies do you have?
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_101_285&products_id=15317

 

[ken.clements]

got my new toy today......beautiful shape.....gonna go clean it up and get to "know" it.
that sizer looks like it belongs in a press. Your going to have a bugger of a time trying to push your minies through it without either a press or pliers to hold it.

 

[59sharps]

THE ONE i SHOT LOOKS SIMILAR TO THE ONE ON THE PAGE YOU LINKED FOR THE SIZER. MY MOLD IS THE rcbs HODGENS. i THINK dIXIE CARRIES. i GOT MY MOLD AND SIZER FROM jOHN AT(http://northeasttradeco.com) HIS WEB SITE DOES NOT SHOW THEM BUT HE HAS THEM SO YOU WOULD NEED TO CALL HIM. THE SIZER SCREW INTO A STD. RELOADING PRESS, THE PUSH ROD FITS INTO RAM WERE A SHELL HOLD WOULD GO. i HAVE USED THE ONE DIXIE SELLS BUT LIKE JOHNS BETTER. (AND YES JOHNS IS A LOT MORE MONEY ABOUT TWICE THE PRICE i THINK. BUT FOR VOLUME SIZING IS WORTH IT.

 

[TFoley]

Hollow based bullets were used in many different kinds of guns, both MLers, and breechloaders. They are still shot today,-some simply lubed in the grease grooves present, and others paper patched. The Wax paper "slick" is used to keep any wad from "sticking" to the hollow base- and is also used with plain-based bullets to keep the wads from sticking to the base of these bullets. Wax has a much lower coefficient of friction, than grease, so with the high RPM placed on lead bullets leaving the muzzle, that bit of wax paper tends to leave the base of the bullet very quickly.

I do not have much personal experience shooting hollow based bullets. Mostly, I have spotted targets for other friends who do shoot these kinds of bullets. But, as you well know, spotters are intimately involved in every aspect of load construction, since its the spotter who first sees when a bullets leaves the group, and misses the POA.

My brother gave me some Hollow based, paper patched bullets to try in my Springfield, but I have not done so. I finally have them figured out after several posts about PP bullets, from our own IdahoRon, and now feel Like I may be competent to actually load them correctly, and hit something. I have spent a lot more time shooting cast, plain based bullets in both rifles, and handguns.

FWIW, I am still skeptical about putting grease in those hollow bases, but I have seen some amazing shots made at target matches with that being done. Better shooters than me seem to know how to make that work, and that is why I commented on it.

Sir - you are not answering MY questions - I don't have any. I'm simply making the point that Mr Minshall, a longtime competitor in the MLAGB, their one-time secretary and offtimes match captain, as well as an internationally-successful shooter in many of the disciplines shot under its aegis, does not, so he says, use the finicky and/time-consuming methods employed by some of the posters here - simply because there is either not enough time in the match, or because it is not allowed in the rules of the match, or because it is simply not a solution to a problem that, as he sees, does not exist. He shoots the P53 from 100 to 600 yards with extreme amounts of success, and has done for many years - his scores win international matches, at which shooters from all over the world compete.

I'm happy to emulate his methods, albeit without the slightest hint of his successes.

Please continue to do whatever it is that you do to shoot successfully in the USA, but bear in mind that some of the things that have been talked about here are NOT allowed in international competition.

I mistakenly noted that the P53 was shot at 800 yards - I was wrong. The MLAGB P53 military match is shot at ranges from 100 to 600 yards - without cleaning the gun.

tac