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Parker Hale 1858 Enfield .58 caliber, 2 band

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I think I might try these minies also, from Dixie Gun Works.
"Original style, swaged, hollow base bullet .575 diameter, 530 grain, smooth sided." $26.95 for 50
 
Since the rifling is .005 to .013 deep, using a .015 patch and a .570 round ball was giving me .0075 patch compression in the grooves at the muzzle and -.0015 in the grooves near the breech. Hard to load that even in a clean barrel. I was accurate with a .015 patch at 50 yds that one time, but........

Thanks for your help, I won't be coning this rifle after considering your advice along with Ian's and Joe wood's.

Now it's on to trying different style minies with FFg, FFFg and different lubes.

I'll be trying:

Lyman .575, 510 grain 575213, from Track of the Wolf.

HCB27 .575, 566 grainP/H, from S/S firearm

BU0906 .575 530 grain smooth,swaged, from Dixie Gun works.

Any recommendations for commercial lube for these different minies?
What's the best way to lube without buying a lube sizer?
Has anyone ever made a device just for lubing?

I've tried wonder lube 1000, seems awful soft and messy.
 
Ok, I now see why the need for casting your own bullets and sizing. Just received the 575213, 510 grain minies from Track of The Wolf. Size is all over the place, 2 of them have bases that look like "D" and 2 have bases that look like a rectangle. A lot of the others look out of round.
S/S firearms and Dixies come later this week.
 
To make a long story short take a look here http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l505/ken-clements/P1010010.jpg

To the left is a piece of steel drilled excatly (-.002)to what I need (any maschine shop)
The pin to the right of that is the exact barrel Dia (it would very slowly fall down a clean dry barrel).
The pin doesn't fit in the steel Plate (.003 difference).
The two washer looking things I also had made they are respectivly .575 and 577 (maschine shop around 20 dollars for the pair).
I'll send you a link for lubing from the current British Champion if you want, he's got some very good info on lubing. Most of what I have heard is 50/50 beeswachs/crisco. You can adjust the thickness of the stuff to your liking. Slowly melt it in a saucepan and place your minie's in (or dip them) with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Or the old finger method.
here's my little box I fill in the spare time and empty whenever I have a chance :wink: http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l505/ken-clements/P1010013.jpg
I hope this helps
 
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Thanks, I need all the help I can get.

That sure is a lot of minies ready to go!

The minies with the thin dented skirts, should they be sent back or...
 
58cal. said:
Thanks, I need all the help I can get.

That sure is a lot of minies ready to go!

The minies with the thin dented skirts, should they be sent back or...
I don't know about that (sending back). I have no expierience in that...maybe some guy's here will be able what the best thing to is.I personaly would with saying "I paid for round minie and not dented ones" but I'm a pain in the butt sometimes.
I can only suggest strongly to go to a maschine shop...it would be the best investment you ever made. If the skirts are thin 575213 you could (at the maschine shop) have a pointed piece of brass turned (like the opposite of the minie), roll this around inside of the minie to flair the skirt, then size it through the piece of steel = Barrel size- .001 / .002 (like mine)that you thinking about having made :grin:
let the maschine shop measure your barrel, all tools are different (ones ben dropped and the other has not and now there is .02 difference).I know this from expierience :shake:
 
about 400 minies ready to go :grin: a little time on my hands now in the winter....between 100 and 300 per day....depends on if i stay off the pc :grin:
 
Very nice!

I'll probably return the damaged minies, wait and see what I get from S/S firearms and Dixie gun works.

If I'm going to size minies I guess I could go back and try again the 575611, a .577, 530 grain mini with a .125 skirt. At least they were delivered in good condition. I shot some of the full size ones but had large groups. Probably needed to be sized to .575 and use a heavier charge, maybe about 95 grains.
 
58cal. said:
...a heavier charge, maybe about 95 grains.


Sir - you are not listening to your Uncle tac.

THE official load for the .577/.58 Minie is a tad over 68grains of Fg/FFg - your choice.

95gr of either will likely blow the skirts off the bullets, leaving you with a difficult to remove ring of lead somewhere down the barrel. Accuracy will be 'outside the yellow' when shooting at a school-bus-sized target.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse restoration Fund
 
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/TableList.aspx?catID=2&subID=25&styleID=65

"Track's traditional MINIE bullets, named after French Captain Minie, are Civil War era designs to meet NSSA rules. Use a modest load, a 60 grain Service load in .58 caliber. Excess pressure may flare the skirt on exit! Early editions of "Lyman's Black Powder Handbook" show such bullets in flight."

"Track's improved MINIE bullets were developed by Lyman's staff, with a thick skirt, for heavy loads. Ideal for Enfield and Springfield Muskets, it is allowed in most Civil War Musket matches."



So your saying 68g is good for any minie no matter how thick the skirt is weather it's .060 thick or .125, 68g will expand that skirt into the rifling. Since 68g is THE official load I don't have to work up a load starting at 50g and go up by 5 grains at a time to 70g to see what's most accurate.

I can just load 68g with any minie I use and I'm go to go.

Thanks, there's a lot of conflicting information out there.
 
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Hi .58

It sounds like you are getting fustrated. TAC and Mr. Minshall know what they are talking about. I do also sometimes. maybe, every once in a while.

Please remember the loads and/or loading data everyone is giving you are loads for their rifle, with thier sighting methods, with their powder, with their minie’s, with etc. etc. :idunno:

These are meant as starting points or reference points. It doesn’t mean buy it, weigh it, load and shoot it and hit. That would be nice. :nono:

Everybody has a bad day, maybe the guy making the barrel that day found out his wife was not going shopping like she said and your barell is somewhat different. :cursing: I wonder why? :bull:

If you are not already, please go to bench rest shooting. I know there are guys in this forum that will say :barf: but this is the only way to find a load at 50 Meters. Look at all the variables already in this game :(

You have to weigh and size......you remember the piece of steel you wanted to order? :doh:

Call a maschine shop and tell them what you want, grab the rifle and the wife (second is optional) :grin: my pict that I sent for reference and go for a ride. :grin:

Minie’s- first weigh and sort them out (can be up to 5 grains or more). Then look at them all (I’m just guessing here they are swagged, not poured which means they will be more exact, no ripples, holes and such). If something doesn’t look right, put it aside.
Remember the beeswax and crisco you melted in the kitchen :stir: (and got yelled at because it stinks)...dip your minie’s in that. I have the Wonder Lube, smells nice, works great in my Zouave, but not for my Springfield. :idunno:

Then weigh your powder. Take a look here http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l505/ken-clements/P1010014.jpg
All these little tubs have a preweighed amount of powder. We are not allowed to bring a flask or such to the range here. Everything has to be preweighed. If you are using a flask try this. Pour one load and put it aside, tap the flask twice and pour another, weigh them both...see the difference? :slap: Now picture yourself somewhat fustrated on the range = can’t hit sh&/%. :cursing:
Be prepared to go to the range, everything ready, full of pep and vineger, having reduced all variables to ”žI seriously doubt it“ :wink: and hit the target next to where you where aimimg :haha: Won’t be that bad, trust me :grin:

Remember your fouling shots and your dry capping. You could reproduce the grease TAC is using, his Minie’s, his powder charge (which Powder?)and shoot that AFTER your fouling shots. It might work in your rifle, save you time and money. If it doesn’t, start at 40 Grains, 5 grain incraments, work your way up to 75 grains...taking your time. As you can see, about 40 shots per Minie, per day. Change a variable for example grease = start again. :stir:

Untill you get what you want. :thumbsup:

The rifles we are shooting were mass produced for a military that shot at each other in massive ranks in less than 100 yards. The ”ž60 grains and 530 grain .575 paper patched Minies“ is a middle measurement for an Army of what, 700,000? 100,000 men standing across from each other at 100 yards and letting go. The people who were in charge of ordering this stuff for the guys in the field were more worried about what would work with soldiers who were scared, muddy, wet, have different rifles, etc etc. not accuracy. Somewhat like ”žthe more bullets flying around, the more hits“
Now we, 6-8 generations further know everything better. :bow: We can take mass produced rifle, with general information generated under war time conditions for 6-8 different rifles and expect to make match perfect groupings? :bull: I can’t.
The most important thing I find is to have fun. It’s a puzzle where I have to find the best fitting parts......then I can show off :rotf: :blah: :applause:
 
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I just read 1858 was the first year for progressive depth rifling in the Enfield.
The 3 band has .005 to .015

I read elsewhere the 2 band 33" barrel
(like mine) has .005 to .013 rifling.
 
Interesting info, I read this on another board, although I don't know what gun he used.
I also read elsewhere that liquid Alox has petroleum in it.

Lyman #577611 mold for .58 cal. minie has 2 grease groves, a smaller cavity
thus a thicker skirt in order to prevent heavy powder loads from blowing the skirt off
and turning the conical minie into a irregular round ball.
The .58 cal. Lyman #577611 2-groove minie mold also will cast minies that are .577" diameter.
The diameter is a tighter fit in the bore, the thicker skirt does not expand as easily into the rifling,
it is more difficult to load and it should be used with 65 to 70 gr. 3F black powder. It is a tighter fit
in a .58" bore for higher muzzle velocity. Contrary to what some may think, tighter bore fits create
higher pressure and higher muzzle velocities especially for hunting. Loose bore fits can use
45 to 50 gr. 3F black powder and are easier to load. However, loose fits have excessive blow-by,
less pressure and less muzzle velocity which is great for target shooting. If you increase the load
with conventional minies with grease grooves, you risk blowing the skirt off because the lower groove
gives the thin skirt a place to break and spin off when it leaves the mizzle. The type minie you use
is a trade off between ease of loading and type of shooting one is doing. The Pritchett style swaged
minie is easier to lube and is not as messy.

After experimenting with DGW BU0901, 3- groove minies, the Lyman 575213-OS, 3-groove minies,
and the Lyman 577611 2-groove minies, I don't use anything but the .58 cal.
Metford-Pritchett style .575" diameter swaged minies without any grease grooves.
I like the swaged minie for it's accuracy, it's easy and fast loading using marginal lubrication
with liquid Lee Alox AND I can effectively use it with a lighter load of 45 to 50 gr. 3F black powder.
If I want to raise the powder load to 60 or 65 gr. of 3F, the heavier powder load will not blow
the skirt off the Pritchett style swaged minie because there are no grease grooves to give the skirt a place to fail.
 
"After shooting a few rounds, I used a saturated cotton swab to apply liquid Alox bullet lube to the skirt of the Pritchett minie bullet after it is loaded point down in a .58 cal. nylon quick-load tube (or Andy Smith Savannah Arsenal paper cartridge roll). I used Alox because that lube clings to the smooth Pritchett minie bullet similar to STP. That product requires 24 hours to dry to a light varnish like coating and it is water soluable."
 
All 50 minies mic .5758
They measure about 1.100 in length.
5 have some lead missing/imperfect tips.
A few have what looks like faint vice grip marks.
6 have a little marred lead half way between the tip and the .575 dia.
The rest of them look ok.
All the skirts look uniform, undamaged and measure about .055


BU0906 SWAGED .577 ENFIELD BULLETS 50

"BU0906 .575 530 grain smooth,swaged,from Dixie Gun works."
 
I have a 58 caliber (.577) Parker Hale Enfield 2 band, barrel made in Birmingham England, 1 in 48 twist, 33" barrel, 5 deep progressive groove rifling. (.005 to .013, I believe) I will use it for target practice, and hunting to 50 yds, once I become more consistently accurate.

I've shot it about six times. I've learned when discussing my Enfield to be specific as to exactly which gun I'm talking about.
I didn't know there are so many different types of Enfields, with different rifling, and bore diameters.

It's not easy to use the patch and round ball in a military rifle, built to shoot minie bullets, that has deep progressive grooves.

I shot the round ball the other day with 60g of Goex FFg at about 43 yds. I used the .570 rb and a .015 patch. I tapped it in the whole length of the short starter with a mallet. Very tight at the muzzle.
I then was able to seat it with the loading rod. Using "fine sight", the first three shots were touching each other at 2 1/4 inches high and 2 1/4" to the right. The holes looked like 2 eyes and a nose. I understand it was high because of the short distance. After each shot I swabed with 3 patches, both sides, because of the very tight fit.
I shot 2 more times with the rb trying to compensate for the 2 1/4" and each shot got closer to the bull.
Next time I shoot I'll try more powder and see if the group opens up.
I think the rb would be very good at 50 yds or less, especially from a tree stand because I wouldn't have to worry about the ball moving off the powder.

After shooting the rb I tried some swaged, 530g smooth sided (no grooves) pritchett style minies, with thin skirts, that I got from Dixie Gun works.

I don't want to cast at this time and since these were swaged/sized, they were my first choice.

They all measured .5758 I used 60g of FFg and crisco in the base. First shot, just about 2 1/4 inches high and 2 1/4 inches to the right. Shot 4 more times with 60g and all were high and to the right, 2 overlaped. Ended up with a larger group than the roundballs. I'll probably try 65 and 70g next time.

SS Firearms has some cast .577, 566g P/H shallow base, and .577, 530g standard.

They also have a .580, 530g standard minie.

I'm thinking of getting Dixie Gun Works .577 Enfield sizing die (not sure exactly what size they would come out) and sizing a few by hand to see which shoots best.
 
probably try 80-100g at 50 and 100 yds next time.
I think it's going to be awhile before I figure out the minie.

This target is from the previous post, 43yds
.570 rb .015 patch, 60g FFg

I used a small piece of electrical tape with a 1/16" hole in the center and fixed it to my saftey glasses, it really helped me see the sights better.


prb2_opt.jpg
 
Just discovered this thread today... I rarely look in the photos forum and not somewhere I would expect to find such discussion. Thought I'd better chip in as my name was mentioned a couple of times.

I've never fired patched round ball from an Enfield so can't comment on results: some claim to get good accuracy, but requirements vary for minute of deer for hunting and minute of angle for target accuracy.

I don't own a Parker-Hale.

In my Enfield (original and similar specs. to the P-H P/58) I use a 560 grain pure lead bullet cast from an RCBS mould. It has a shallow base cavity. I dip lube the bullets and push through a sizing die to remove excess lube and fit to my bore. I do not put lube in the base cavity.

For 100m shooting I use 75 grains of a 'medium grade' shooting powder sold here in the UK. It's quite dirty, but fouling stays soft and I can get match shots fired without the need to clean between shots (which is not permitted in military rifle matches in international competition).

Out to 600 yards I use 75 grains of TPPH (UK proof house powder) but similar to Swiss #4/1.5f. For 800 yards I increase to 80 grains. Some friends shoot larger charges than this, but generally have modified base plugs for their Minie bullets such that they cast with a thicker skirt. It's a trade off, gain some velocity but suffer more recoil which may reduce accuracy.

The quoted service charges are for 19th century powders and the smooth sided bullet loaded from a cartridge. Common perception is that 19thC powders are 'stronger' than those we use today.

David
 
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