Patch Knife?

[Artificer]

Something else on the earlier pouches. As you have mentioned before, wearing a pouch that has stuff outside it or dangling from it when hunting on foot in the brush, gets hung up or lost in the brush. Even those thong tied items that stay in the pouch when not in use, tend to also get hung up on the thongs. So perhaps this is the explanation why earlier Shot Pouches rarely have anything on the outside?

There are still many places here in Virginia where there is a lot of brush to go through to hunt deer until you get in the foothills or actually in the mountains. So the fewer things hanging from one's Shot Pouch, the better it is in such areas.

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

Something else on the earlier pouches. As you have mentioned before, wearing a pouch that has stuff outside it or dangling from it when hunting on foot in the brush, gets hung up or lost in the brush. Even those thong tied items that stay in the pouch when not in use, tend to also get hung up on the thongs. So perhaps this is the explanation why earlier Shot Pouches rarely have anything on the outside?

That's sure my take on it from the practical living within alder tangles. I have made several bags with sheaths on the straps or bag, and only one has worked out with the sheath on the back of the bag so it's "hidden" from the brush between bag and body. In recent years I've taken to dropping my sheathed knife inside my bag along with a small horn.

Gonna have to get back out into ranch country and visit a few bone yards. It's surprisingly hard to buy small slender horns that work best for me- more like what folks call "priming" horns today. They hold about 500 grains of powder when full. Plenty for a day of hunting unless I'm using a shotgun.

You'd think you could just cut short a bigger horn, but most are too thick at the butt due to taper. I like them finished size no more than 5" long and no more than 2" in diameter. Most horns on the market today are "Spanish" or Mexican stock and trim down to 2 1/2"+ in diameter. Those seem like small differences, but a half inch or inch here and there makes them too big to drop into my preferred small bags.

 

[George]

So perhaps this is the explanation why earlier Shot Pouches rarely have anything on the outside?

And yet in mid-18th century Doddridge says:

"This awl with its buckhorn handle was an appendage of every shot pouch strap,..."

Spence

 

[Artificer]

So perhaps this is the explanation why earlier Shot Pouches rarely have anything on the outside?

And yet in mid-18th century Doddridge says:

"This awl with its buckhorn handle was an appendage of every shot pouch strap,..."

Spence

Spence,

That is a GREAT quote and thank you for bringing it up. OK, so was that a sewing awl or was it for the touch hole of the barrel?

I have not seen pictures of every original surviving 18th century Shot Pouch (and there are very few), but I don't believe most of them had such an awl attached to the strap? Maybe more proof the surviving pouches were "Day" Pouches?

Still, I could see how sewing just one piece of leather to cover most of the blade and handle of the awl would keep it from sticking out too far and hanging up, even in dense brush/thickets.

Gus

 

[Black Hand]

Still, I could see how sewing just one piece of leather to cover most of the blade and handle of the awl would keep it from sticking out too far and hanging up, even in dense brush/thickets.

Gus

My awl lives in the pouch, avoiding any issue.

 

[George]

OK, so was that a sewing awl or was it for the touch hole of the barrel?

The entire quotation re the awl:

"The moccasons in ordinary use cost but a few hours labor to make them. This was done by an instrument denominated a moccason awl, which was made of the backspring of an old clasp knife. This awl with its buckhorn handle was an appendage of every shot pouch strap, together with a roll of buckskin for mending the moccasons. This was the labor of almost every evening. They were sewed together and patched with deer skin thongs, or whangs, as they were commonly called."

BTW, the terms 'picker' or 'priming wire' were sometimes used in the 18th century for what we call a vent pick today.

Spence

 

[Artificer]

Totally understand.

However, it would not be much work to wet form a piece of leather over the awl and some of the handle and then sew it onto a pouch strap. If one used a rather small diameter antler tip, it would not hang up on brush that way.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Spence,

Thank you for the fast follow up.

I was aware that "picker," "pricker" or "priming wire" were the period terms for a device to clear the touch hole, but thank you for mentioning it.

OK, so it is a larger sewing awl than a pricker would have been. Thanks for making that clear as I was not sure if the author was using a different term.

Well, I've made a double sheath for a couple of period antler handle sewing awls I've made, so like Black Hand, mine will go into the pouch for a living history.

BUT, the quote is much appreciated as it demonstrates many frontiersmen carried things on or in the pouch that we might not normally imagine.

Gus

 

[Black Hand]

Totally understand.

However, it would not be much work to wet form a piece of leather over the awl and some of the handle and then sew it onto a pouch strap. If one used a rather small diameter antler tip, it would not hang up on brush that way.

Gus

True.
But why bother if you can cover the tip and carry it in the pouch? I prefer to leave the strap clear.

 

[Artificer]

OK, I hope I word this correctly. Oh, before I go further, if one is not doing living history, then this post raises a completely moot point that need not concern anyone else.

Well, the Dodderidge quote Spence supplied of "This awl with its buckhorn handle was an appendage of every shot pouch strap" is IMO a powerful and somewhat unique documentation on Shot Pouches used on the frontier in the period. The awl is something added to the pouch that is beyond what it takes to load and the minimum care for the rifle or gun. That word "every" for the description of carrying the awl on the Shot Pouch strap is one of the few, if not only time, that original documentation is so specific over such a broad range of period accoutrements. So it would seem if one is doing this kind of persona and attempting to be as authentic as possible, it almost demands one has an awl on one's pouch strap.

I don’t know if they just stuck the awl through the strap and left the point exposed next to the strap or if they covered the blade and much of the antler tip with leather. The quote is not that specific. Now, as many times as I have stuck myself with an awl over the years when doing leatherwork, I have to admit I’m leery of carrying an awl on a pouch strap without covering it with a wet formed piece of leather sewn to the strap. I even wonder if it was more common to carry the sewing awl on the strap towards the front of the body or the strap towards the rear of the body? I would think on the strap towards the rear of the body, though of course I don’t know.

Of course, one need not worry about adding an awl to the pouch strap if one is not doing a frontiersman impression of that period and geographic location. Other people of the same period may or probably did not carry a sewing awl on their pouch straps, as the few remaining original pouches that survive from the period don’t have them and/or don’t show even holes where the awl blade would have gone through the leather, as far as I know of, though I’m certainly no expert on the subject.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

OK, back on the OP's subject.

The very first knife I made was made by cutting out the basic shape from a piece of 01 Tool Steel an then completely hand filing it to shape. Since that was the early/mid 70's, I used the "Sketch Book 76" as a guide on the shape of the blade. I hardened and annealed it in the large heat treating oven we had at work. Of course I never did that again, but I did it one time to help teach myself how to file metal flat and even. My best friend in life liked it so much, I gave it to him. Then I offered to make a belt sheath for him as he did not do much leather work.

He surprised me that he wanted me to attach the knife to the inside back of his pouch, with it angled so the handle was higher toward the front of his body. He did not like to carry a knife on his sash or belt when wearing "skins." He used that knife to cut patches and everything else and he found he really liked the knife attached to the back of his pouch and it did not hang up on brush during hunting.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

P.S. I guess I should have mentioned he liked to carry his pouch on the left side and he was right handed. So he drew and replaced the knife cross ways.

Gus

 

[Black Hand]

Well, the Dodderidge quote Spence supplied of "This awl with its buckhorn handle was an appendage of every shot pouch strap" is IMO a powerful and somewhat unique documentation on Shot Pouches used on the frontier in the period.

Except that Doddridge was born in 1769 and the book covers 1763-1783. I suspect his was a 2nd or 3rd person perspective, so his writings, while very interesting, should be taken with a grain of salt.....

 

[BrownBear]

...the Dodderidge quote Spence supplied of "This awl with its buckhorn handle was an appendage of every shot pouch strap" is IMO a powerful and somewhat unique documentation on Shot Pouches used on the frontier in the period. The awl is something added to the pouch that is beyond what it takes to load and the minimum care for the rifle or gun.

Somehow I didn't react to carrying an awl on/in a shot bag, mostly because in the era of leather for everything it just made sense for everyone to be carrying an awl- wherever you put it. Things so basic as moccasin maintenance had to be done almost on a daily basis when you were doing much walking at all, not to mention repair of your many other leather items.

Anyone recall much about the Boy Scout/Swiss Army knives and their ilk 50 years ago? An awl was one of the standard "blades" as I recall. Or at least, living as I was in a land of leather, the preferred models of pocket knives. That's a "leftover" from previous eras, I'm sure. The lack of awls on knives says a lot about our culture today.

Gotta tell a funny story on myself, or perhaps on the current generation. My wife and I were traveling and photographing in the desert with a pair of Millennial couples. My faithful old sandals were beginning to disintegrate, so one evening after dinner I pulled out an awl, needles and thread and proceeded to rebuild them. Didn't even think about it.

The two young couples were scandalized! "Why don't you just go out and buy some new ones!!!!!" :rotf:

 

[Nativearizonan]

...the Dodderidge quote Spence supplied of "This awl with its buckhorn handle was an appendage of every shot pouch strap" is IMO a powerful and somewhat unique documentation on Shot Pouches used on the frontier in the period. The awl is something added to the pouch that is beyond what it takes to load and the minimum care for the rifle or gun.

Somehow I didn't react to carrying an awl on/in a shot bag, mostly because in the era of leather for everything it just made sense for everyone to be carrying an awl- wherever you put it. Things so basic as moccasin maintenance had to be done almost on a daily basis when you were doing much walking at all, not to mention repair of your many other leather items.

Anyone recall much about the Boy Scout/Swiss Army knives and their ilk 50 years ago? An awl was one of the standard "blades" as I recall. Or at least, living as I was in a land of leather, the preferred models of pocket knives. That's a "leftover" from previous eras, I'm sure. The lack of awls on knives says a lot about our culture today.

Gotta tell a funny story on myself, or perhaps on the current generation. My wife and I were traveling and photographing in the desert with a pair of Millennial couples. My faithful old sandals were beginning to disintegrate, so one evening after dinner I pulled out an awl, needles and thread and proceeded to rebuild them. Didn't even think about it.

The two young couples were scandalized! "Why don't you just go out and buy some new ones!!!!!" :rotf:

I would hazard a guess these same millennials would also be aghast if you threw a plastic bottle into the trash instead of the recycle bin. I guess recycle means different things to different people.

 

[Artificer]

Well, the Dodderidge quote Spence supplied of "This awl with its buckhorn handle was an appendage of every shot pouch strap" is IMO a powerful and somewhat unique documentation on Shot Pouches used on the frontier in the period.

Except that Doddridge was born in 1769 and the book covers 1763-1783. I suspect his was a 2nd or 3rd person perspective, so his writings, while very interesting, should be taken with a grain of salt.....

That is an extremely good point.

Of course there may and even perhaps was some exaggeration that every pouch strap had one, still even if it was true that the majority carried the awl that way, then it is a pretty specific thing that was done in the period and we rarely get that kind of documentation of an accoutrement on a Shot Pouch that was not for shooting or gun maintenance.

Gus

 

[Billnpatti]

I'll toss in my :2 on the topic of a patch knife. I have my doubts about the men back in the day carrying a patch knife. I know that some carried a neck knife. I don't know if it had a specific purpose. I have a neck knife that I occasionally use for a patch knife. I also have another small knife that I use for a patch knife and when I carry it, it fits in a sheath that is on my possibles bag strap. I carry a specific knife for cutting patches. It is separate from any other knife that I might carry because I want it kept as sharp as a razor and used for no other purposes that may dull it. When you are gathering up a small wad of fabric at the muzzle of your rifle and trying to cut it flush with the muzzle, it takes a pretty sharp knife to do the job safely. Having to saw through a wad of fabric with a dull knife is a very good way to cut yourself. Get a small knife made of top of the line steel and keep it razor sharp and use it only for cutting patches at the muzzle of your rifle. You will be a very happy camper if you do.

 

[Black Hand]

I know that some carried a neck knife. I don't know if it had a specific purpose.

Neck-knives are primarily a native item and it is unlikely many non-natives would have carried one. Even so, the sheath was held by a thong going over the shoulder but tucked into the belt or sash. I can't remember a period piece that was actually meant to be worn exclusively about the neck. If anyone knows of extant neck-knives worn about the neck exclusively, I'd be interested in documentation.

 

[SgtErv]

I carry an awl similar to what Doddridge describes. It is tied to my pouch on a thong that's poked through the very bottom of the strap. On the other end of the thong is a powder measure. I use it for both picking the vent and poking through leather.

Having the thong running through the strap so low negates problems of it getting hung up on stuff.

I don't have problems with it poking through anything, I just stay mindful of its presence and keep it pointed down when it's in the bag.

Re: Doddridge...Yes, he was young when he witnessed things. I'll give you that. Yet, he lived there and was a participant in the Indian wars that accompanied the Revolution, and was about 13 or 14 when the fort closest to him was attacked in 1783. He darn well remembered it. Traumatic experiences will do that to a man's mind. The recall of details is pronounced. Ive experienced this personally.

Moreover, until Fallen Timbers time pretty much stood still where he lived. It slackened, but it was by no means over. Then there is whiskey rebellion. He had plenty of exposure to the armed people of his home, I'd wager, plenty enough to insight into their (and his own) material culture. I respectfully disagree that it is a nearly useless document. The accounts of battles and skirmishes that took place around him, or even about which he was told, sure - big grain of salt. But that his dad fixed gun barrels for the militia and wrote out some of their documents isn't a stretch at all

 

[Black Hand]

I respectfully disagree that it is a nearly useless document.

I said nothing of the sort.
I suggested caution in using it as primary source material...