Patch lube makes a difference

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Onojutta

45 Cal.
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
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Location
Martic Township, Lancaster County
Perhaps everyone knows this already, but I made a discovery at the range over the weekend. I have always used the yellow cotton patches that are prelubed with Wonder Lube. Trouble is with a .490 ball and .020 patches they are very difficult to load, so I thought I would try a different lube before a thinner patch. I got some patches that come presoaked with oil from TOTW (I don't know what kind of oil). My groupings with the oil patches were consistently about 2" higher than the groupings with the wonder lube patches, and this was only at 25 yards! I can only imagine what the difference would be out towards 100 yards. That can only mean that the ball has a higher velocity with the oil soaked patches.

Again, maybe everyone knows this already but I thought it worthy of sharing. And I'm just curious, what's your favorite patch lube combo?


This is one example. All other targets at 25 yards showed the same result. Upper group in black was fired with oil soaked patch, the bottom group with wonder lube patches.

 
My super accurate squirrel LR began by shooting .445 swaged RBs ahead of 30 grs 3f and a .018 thick patch lubed w/ Crisco. This combo shot accurately enough for many head hits on squirrels but for whatever reason the Crisco deteriorated the cotton pillow ticking patches if they sat for over a year.

So then changed to Oxyoke 1000 Plus lube and to my amazement, the loads shot to exactly the same POI. This "new" load then proceeded to take the heads off of many squirrels....to this day.

After being involved w/ handloading many CF cartridges for super accurate target punching, it was surprising to achieve such accurate loads w/ a MLer w/ so little effort.....so, my experience w/ changing patch lubes was uneventful. The same results w/ both lubes.....Fred
 
well i been shotin my .40 cal Rice barrel and have been foolin with patches and cleaning between shots also I have tried a 6:1 dry patch system ie Dutch Schoults I use all the same patch material .023 denim. and I can tell you this for sure the tighter the load the higher the group just as you have experienced as much as 3" at 50yd
 
I change anything in the load I almost always get some sort of shift in the POI, sometimes dramatic, sometimes not. When switching from TOW's mink oil to bear oil the elevation change was no more than an inch at 50 yards, no difference in group size (at least so far with two rifles). For years I used nothing but bore butter, and it worked, but not as well as the other lubes I have tried.
 
I think lubes can make a big difference at the cutting edge of groups. Not all lubes are suitable for all conditions. A room temp or hot weather lube may not work best at freezing or below. I use mink oil deer tallow or lard interchangeably, Its not always the best, but gives me what I'm happy with...I don't expect any blue ribbons for my shooting.
 
I think it stands to reason that the oil allows for less friction than the wonder lube. Less friction equals less resistance on the patch and ball as it travels through the barrel, resulting in a faster velocity.
 
:idunno: :hmm: Would not a 'slicker' patch lube that caused less friction mean that lower initial pressures would be needed to move the ball. As the ignition chamber expanded and the slicker ball moved up the tube it would have a decreased velocity, since the ball would have lower pressure behind it???
It seems that minnies, maxis, real, ect get more velocity per grain to grain since there higher inertias alowe more pressure to form before the Minnie starts to move.
Yes a Minnie moves slower then a rb, but a Minnie that is twice as heavy as a rb will move at 2/3 the rb velocity on the same charge of powder.
Keep in mind this is just off the top of my head. I do not own a chronograph and have never tested this, just late night ponderings
 
Me thinks that sometimes "problems" are over thought in addition to heeding all the incorrect advice floating around.

I use Oxyoke 1000 Plus which is a waxy lube and use it year 'round w/o any complications. Was told repeatedly by those in the "know" that this lube shouldn't be used in cold weather for whatever reason. Well....used it when hunting snowshoes in -15 degrees w/o any problems....the POi didn't change and nothing happened to the MLer.

Also use it in warmer weather and never had a need to change the sights....the POI was the same as in -15 degrees.

Seeing I've always been a meat hunter and like to eat all the edible parts of the animals I shoot, head hits only are taken...so fine accuracy is mandatory.

Perhaps I'm just plain lucky or observe the rule...."don't fiddle w/ things that don't need fiddling".....Fred
 
In my experience patch lube and patch thickness make much more difference in the performance of any particular load recipe than all other variables entered into the equation combined.
 
tenngun said:
:idunno: :hmm: Would not a 'slicker' patch lube that caused less friction mean that lower initial pressures would be needed to move the ball. As the ignition chamber expanded and the slicker ball moved up the tube it would have a decreased velocity, since the ball would have lower pressure behind it???
It seems that minnies, maxis, real, ect get more velocity per grain to grain since there higher inertias alowe more pressure to form before the Minnie starts to move.
Yes a Minnie moves slower then a rb, but a Minnie that is twice as heavy as a rb will move at 2/3 the rb velocity on the same charge of powder.
Keep in mind this is just off the top of my head. I do not own a chronograph and have never tested this, just late night ponderings

Tengun,
The pressure is a factor of the powder charge, not the patch and ball. So the driving pressure will be the same regardless of the patch or ball. If the friction of the lube is the only variable that changes, that explains the change in velocity.

As for bullets and velocities in general... Assuming equal powder charge and bore pressure in all cases. When a bullet is fired there are two external forces acting on it: the pressure from expanding gas, and friction of the barrel. There is also some small resistance from the air in the barrel ahead of the bullet that the bullet must push out of the way, but let's ignore that for now. If you also ignore effects of friction, the mass of the bullet determines how fast the bullet leaves the barrel. This is because

Force = mass x acceleration.

The force is provided by the powder charge, so assume that is constant. You can see then that if you rearrange that equation so that the mass is your variable (different bullet weights) you get

Acceleration = force \ mass

So, with constant force, you can see that the acceleration increases as the mass decreases. Once you know the acceleration, the instantaneous velocity can be determined at any given point say at the muzzle or down range. Obviously more acceleration from the powder discharge results in higher velocity. The other variable here is the friction in the barrel. The less friction to slow down the bullet, the faster it can leave the muzzle.

Once a bullet is in flight, there are only two forces acting upon it. Gravity and air. If you drop a bullet from your shoulder, the time it takes for it to hit the ground is the exact same time your bullet remains in flight. A bullet fired from a gun is no different and begins to fall to the ground as soon as it leaves the barrel. So the velocity must be fast enough to get the bullet to where it needs to go before it falls to the ground. This explains drop.

The other force of air or wind resistance (also known as drag) is very complex and influenced by the shape and size of the bullet. As the bullet travels through the air, friction from contact with the air molecules acts to slow the bullet down. But the moving air (wind) can also force the bullet of course. The reason that rifling increases accuracy is that the spinning projectile has angular momentum. Think of a top. The inertia of the bullet wanted to continue spinning helps to equalize the drag acting on it. The spin doesn't change the forced acting on the bullet, it just gives the bullet some inertia which helps it stay on course.

The shape of round ball is not very aerodynamic and is not very stable, even with rifle spin. This is why maxi and conical shave an advantage. Generally, the longer and slender an object is, the more aerodynamic it is. Think of an airplane fuselage. The other advantage of a "bullet" vs a round ball is you can add weight by making it longer without increasing the diameter. But the subject of bullet weight or mass is a whole separate discussion. :yakyak:
 
Little Buffalo said:
The pressure is a factor of the powder charge, not the patch and ball. So the driving pressure will be the same regardless of the patch or ball.
Unless the patch/ball combination is loose enough that some of the gas can leak past it. Then the pressure profile is not constant.

Spence
 
Loading a ball in a dirty barrel also effects velocity doesn't it? It's not as simple as mass/ powder charge/ barrel length = velocity, simple Newtonian physics on paper can give us generalities. How fast does 70 grains of 3 f drive a 178 grain ball patched with .15 patched round ball greased with 2 cc mink oil? At sea level on a 70 degree day will be different then at two thousand foot elevation at freezing.
Ok, here we have differences in ignition time of the powder and air pressure differences. However if we go back to sea level at 70 degrees at 37 degrees north latitude and we fire a string of shots, cleaning between each shot we will get 50 different results. So to answer our question we give an avarage or a mean. There will be veraration between each shot, if we change from cleaning between shots to every third or fifth or tenth the size of the variation increases.
It's not just the caloric energy of the powder vs the weight of the projectile. It is how quickly that energy can be released. This is why 3f produces higher pressures and hence velocities then 2f, when both have the same amount of calories liberated behind the ball, likewise larger caliburs reach peak pressures quiver then smaller caliburs. Greater inertia of the projectile means the confined powder has to generate more pressure before the ball can move. After the ball starts moving the increased pressure leads to increased velocity.
Increased or decreased friction between the ball-patch and barrel or decreased friction will effect the inertial of the ball. Even though the ball-patch weighs the same.
Newton can get us on the way to Mars but we still have to tweek on the way.
 
tenngun said:
Loading a ball in a dirty barrel also effects velocity doesn't it?

Yes, the dirty bore increases friction, but does not change the energy provided by the powder charge.

It's not as simple as mass/ powder charge/ barrel length = velocity, simple Newtonian physics on paper can give us generalities. How fast does 70 grains of 3 f drive a 178 grain ball patched with .15 patched round ball greased with 2 cc mink oil? At sea level on a 70 degree day will be different then at two thousand foot elevation at freezing.
Ok, here we have differences in ignition time of the powder and air pressure differences. However if we go back to sea level at 70 degrees at 37 degrees north latitude and we fire a string of shots, cleaning between each shot we will get 50 different results.

The fundamentals of basic Newtonian physics certainly apply. Differences in air pressure and temperature are variables, but the basic principal is still the same. Temperature of the barrel affects the frictional resistance of the barrel. Atmospheric pressure and temperature affect the density of the air and therefore the resistance of the drag. But these are just factors of Newton's law, not exceptions.

The reason you get a different shot placement every time is because it is impossible to duplicate each of these variables exactly the same for each shot. If you could duplicate each variable exactly the same for each shot, then you would get exactly the same POI.

It's not just the caloric energy of the powder vs the weight of the projectile. It is how quickly that energy can be released.

Calories refers to the amount of heat energy available, but heat is not the main component of an explosive powder charge. The force driving the ball down the barrel is provided by the expansion of gas resulting from the explosive powder charge. While heat is a component of that since the explosion is an exothermic reaction meaning that it gives off heat, thinking of if in terms of heat (caloric) energy is not accurate. That would be like heating the barrel with a propane torch and expecting the heat by itself to propel the ball.

This is why 3f produces higher pressures and hence velocities then 2f, when both have the same amount of calories liberated behind the ball,

A load of X grains of FFFg powder produces a different amount of energy than an equivalent load of FFg powder, so now we're dealing with two different driving forces. Since the FFFg powder has smaller grain size, it has less void space than a volumetric equivalent load of FFg, so the FFFg load contains more powder, and produces more energy.

likewise larger caliburs reach peak pressures quiver then smaller caliburs. Greater inertia of the projectile means the confined powder has to generate more pressure before the ball can move. After the ball starts moving the increased pressure leads to increased velocity.
Increased or decreased friction between the ball-patch and barrel or decreased friction will effect the inertial of the ball. Even though the ball-patch weighs the same.
Newton can get us on the way to Mars but we still have to tweek on the way.

Inertia simply refers to the tendency of an object in motion to stay in motion, or at rest to stay at rest - Newton's first law. The greater inertia of a heavier bullet will cause it to accelerate slower and remain in the barrel longer - Newton's second law. This would cause the pressure in the bore to remain higher until it can be relieved by the ball clearing the barrel. However, the amount of energy produced by the exploding powder charge is the same no matter the mass/weight/inertia of the ball. Another way to think of it is, if you load 80 grains of FFFg into your rifle and fire it with no ball, the same energy is produced as when you have a ball loaded.
 
Little Buffalo said:
I think it stands to reason that the oil allows for less friction than the wonder lube. Less friction equals less resistance on the patch and ball as it travels through the barrel, resulting in a faster velocity.

Au contrair, mon ami. I must agree with tenngun, et al. :metoo: The slicker a patch lube is, the lower will be the MV and just for the reason stated by tenngun. I know that Dutch Schoultz will agree but I should not be speaking for him. :shake: I'll let Dutch speak for himself, if he so chooses. :thumbsup:

Let me illustrate this idea. When I was a kid, I used to carry a pea shooter around with me everywhere and shot it at just about everything. It didn't take me long to figure out how to get a greater velocity from my pea shooter. If I stuck my tongue on the mouth end of the pea shooter and built up pressure in my mouth before removing my tongue from the end of the pea shooter, my chosen projectile went farther than if I just used the same force to build up pressure but simply "huffed" my air into the end of the pea shooter. The difference is that by placing my tongue over the end of the pea shooter, I got more pressure behind the projectile before it began to move. It is the same with shooting a ball with a lube having a greater lubricity VS one having a lesser lubricity. That is one of the great factors in Dutch's dry patch system. A dry patch is not as slick as a juicy one and, therefore, allows the pressure to build before the projectile begins to move. The result, less slick yields higher chamber pressure before the ball leaves the muzzle and this gives higher MV.
 
The pressure is a factor of the powder charge, not the patch and ball. So the driving pressure will be the same regardless of the patch or ball.

Wrong! :nono:
Pressure is dependant on a combination of several factors. Many shooters claim a bore that is too smooth will lower pressure and can affect accuracy. Type, thickness of patch can affect pressure as can type and amount of lube. Do not forget ambient temperatures and moon phases. Also many mysterious factors. Rifle will group one day, not the next when all elements seem to be identical. Wanna go nuts? Stick with this game. :wink:
 
Little Buffalo said:
tenngun said:
Loading a ball in a dirty barrel also effects velocity doesn't it?

Yes, the dirty bore increases friction, but does not change the energy provided by the powder charge.

It's not as simple as mass/ powder charge/ barrel length = velocity, simple Newtonian physics on paper can give us generalities. How fast does 70 grains of 3 f drive a 178 grain ball patched with .15 patched round ball greased with 2 cc mink oil? At sea level on a 70 degree day will be different then at two thousand foot elevation at freezing.
Ok, here we have differences in ignition time of the powder and air pressure differences. However if we go back to sea level at 70 degrees at 37 degrees north latitude and we fire a string of shots, cleaning between each shot we will get 50 different results.

The fundamentals of basic Newtonian physics certainly apply. Differences in air pressure and temperature are variables, but the basic principal is still the same. Temperature of the barrel affects the frictional resistance of the barrel. Atmospheric pressure and temperature affect the density of the air and therefore the resistance of the drag. But these are just factors of Newton's law, not exceptions.

The reason you get a different shot placement every time is because it is impossible to duplicate each of these variables exactly the same for each shot. If you could duplicate each variable exactly the same for each shot, then you would get exactly the same POI.

It's not just the caloric energy of the powder vs the weight of the projectile. It is how quickly that energy can be released.

Calories refers to the amount of heat energy available, but heat is not the main component of an explosive powder charge. The force driving the ball down the barrel is provided by the expansion of gas resulting from the explosive powder charge. While heat is a component of that since the explosion is an exothermic reaction meaning that it gives off heat, thinking of if in terms of heat (caloric) energy is not accurate. That would be like heating the barrel with a propane torch and expecting the heat by itself to propel the ball.

This is why 3f produces higher pressures and hence velocities then 2f, when both have the same amount of calories liberated behind the ball,

A load of X grains of FFFg powder produces a different amount of energy than an equivalent load of FFg powder, so now we're dealing with two different driving forces. Since the FFFg powder has smaller grain size, it has less void space than a volumetric equivalent load of FFg, so the FFFg load contains more powder, and produces more energy.

likewise larger caliburs reach peak pressures quiver then smaller caliburs. Greater inertia of the projectile means the confined powder has to generate more pressure before the ball can move. After the ball starts moving the increased pressure leads to increased velocity.
Increased or decreased friction between the ball-patch and barrel or decreased friction will effect the inertial of the ball. Even though the ball-patch weighs the same.
Newton can get us on the way to Mars but we still have to tweek on the way.

Inertia simply refers to the tendency of an object in motion to stay in motion, or at rest to stay at rest - Newton's first law. The greater inertia of a heavier bullet will cause it to accelerate slower and remain in the barrel longer - Newton's second law. This would cause the pressure in the bore to remain higher until it can be relieved by the ball clearing the barrel. However, the amount of energy produced by the exploding powder charge is the same no matter the mass/weight/inertia of the ball. Another way to think of it is, if you load 80 grains of FFFg into your rifle and fire it with no ball, the same energy is produced as when you have a ball loaded.
Knowledge does not equal understanding....You have eloquently regurgitated the information straight from the text books, but have failed to understand how they are applied to ballistics....

The projectile is expelled by expanding gas....The pressure of that expanding gas will determine exit velocity.

Pressure is determined by a multitude of factors.. Bore diameter, projectile weight, lube, temperature, etc..........

You can test this very simply by chronographing a patched ball vs. an un-patched ball.
 
So, with constant force,

Right there is where you went wrong......
On paper and in the class room we have to use standards and constants in order to form working equations......

In the real world we deal with variables......
 
That would be like heating the barrel with a propane torch and expecting the heat by itself to propel the ball.

Actually that is completely possible....

As the heat from the torch heats the air inside the barrel, the air expands creating pressure...
once that pressure overcomes the friction holding the ball in the barrel the ball will be expelled...

That's why your water heater has a T&P valve on it....So it doesn't explode.
 
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