Patch lube makes a difference

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Little Buffalo said:
Perhaps everyone knows this already, but I made a discovery at the range over the weekend. I have always used the yellow cotton patches that are prelubed with Wonder Lube. Trouble is with a .490 ball and .020 patches they are very difficult to load, so I thought I would try a different lube before a thinner patch. I got some patches that come presoaked with oil from TOTW (I don't know what kind of oil). My groupings with the oil patches were consistently about 2" higher than the groupings with the wonder lube patches, and this was only at 25 yards! I can only imagine what the difference would be out towards 100 yards. That can only mean that the ball has a higher velocity with the oil soaked patches.

Again, maybe everyone knows this already but I thought it worthy of sharing. And I'm just curious, what's your favorite patch lube combo?


This is one example. All other targets at 25 yards showed the same result. Upper group in black was fired with oil soaked patch, the bottom group with wonder lube patches.

Rather than postulating answers without evidence, you might want to reevaluate your question, because you have made some assumptions.....
 
I learned the hard way that precut, pre-lubed patches aren't equal to freshly lubed, cut at the muzzle patches.

As of late I'm using Lehigh Valley lube at the range and mink oil from TOW on my hunting patches. I'm sure there are a plethora of lubes that will work, and all will vary with powder, humidity, and how many shots you expect to shoot prior to wiping or cleaning.

Lehigh Valley works with Goex, KIK, Elephant, Diamondback, and Swiss. I've not left it in the barrel on a charge long term, but have done that with mink oil with no issues observed.

I HAVE "quick cleaned" at the range with Lehigh Valley and then NOT cleaned the rifle for a week, and found NO evidence of rust.

I CAN shoot all afternoon with Lehigh Valley without wiping/cleaning in my .45, .50, .58, and .62 flinters, and I CAN'T say the same about mink oil. It ISN'T my intent to promote someone's product here, but just anecdotally mentioning my experience.
 
whats interesting about alcohol and murphys oil soap? lol

It does a good job on the range and plinking. Not very good for a hunting lube as it dries out within a couple hours.
 
Have you ever bought a bottle? If not, do so and tell me I am wrong when you take a wiff. I saw both the Lehigh Valley lube and Mr.Flintlock lube guys arguing about the alcohol they used on ALR forum. Its funnier than hell to see 2 guys arguing over the % of alcohol they use :haha:
 
Little Buffalo said:
tenngun said:
Loading a ball in a dirty barrel also effects velocity doesn't it?

Yes, the dirty bore increases friction, but does not change the energy provided by the powder charge.

It's not as simple as mass/ powder charge/ barrel length = velocity, simple Newtonian physics on paper can give us generalities. How fast does 70 grains of 3 f drive a 178 grain ball patched with .15 patched round ball greased with 2 cc mink oil? At sea level on a 70 degree day will be different then at two thousand foot elevation at freezing.
Ok, here we have differences in ignition time of the powder and air pressure differences. However if we go back to sea level at 70 degrees at 37 degrees north latitude and we fire a string of shots, cleaning between each shot we will get 50 different results.

The fundamentals of basic Newtonian physics certainly apply. Differences in air pressure and temperature are variables, but the basic principal is still the same. Temperature of the barrel affects the frictional resistance of the barrel. Atmospheric pressure and temperature affect the density of the air and therefore the resistance of the drag. But these are just factors of Newton's law, not exceptions.

The reason you get a different shot placement every time is because it is impossible to duplicate each of these variables exactly the same for each shot. If you could duplicate each variable exactly the same for each shot, then you would get exactly the same POI.

It's not just the caloric energy of the powder vs the weight of the projectile. It is how quickly that energy can be released.

Calories refers to the amount of heat energy available, but heat is not the main component of an explosive powder charge. The force driving the ball down the barrel is provided by the expansion of gas resulting from the explosive powder charge. While heat is a component of that since the explosion is an exothermic reaction meaning that it gives off heat, thinking of if in terms of heat (caloric) energy is not accurate. That would be like heating the barrel with a propane torch and expecting the heat by itself to propel the ball.

This is why 3f produces higher pressures and hence velocities then 2f, when both have the same amount of calories liberated behind the ball,

A load of X grains of FFFg powder produces a different amount of energy than an equivalent load of FFg powder, so now we're dealing with two different driving forces. Since the FFFg powder has smaller grain size, it has less void space than a volumetric equivalent load of FFg, so the FFFg load contains more powder, and produces more energy.

likewise larger caliburs reach peak pressures quiver then smaller caliburs. Greater inertia of the projectile means the confined powder has to generate more pressure before the ball can move. After the ball starts moving the increased pressure leads to increased velocity.
Increased or decreased friction between the ball-patch and barrel or decreased friction will effect the inertial of the ball. Even though the ball-patch weighs the same.
Newton can get us on the way to Mars but we still have to tweek on the way.

Inertia simply refers to the tendency of an object in motion to stay in motion, or at rest to stay at rest - Newton's first law. The greater inertia of a heavier bullet will cause it to accelerate slower and remain in the barrel longer - Newton's second law. This would cause the pressure in the bore to remain higher until it can be relieved by the ball clearing the barrel. However, the amount of energy produced by the exploding powder charge is the same no matter the mass/weight/inertia of the ball. Another way to think of it is, if you load 80 grains of FFFg into your rifle and fire it with no ball, the same energy is produced as when you have a ball loaded.
It is true that x amount of powder produces e amount of energy, however that wont translate in to velocity in the ball. 70 grains of 3 f in a 10 inch barrel, will release the same amount of energy as in a 42 inch barrel, but it wont drive the ball as fast.
You invest energy in a bow, the bow can't produce any energy. Only your muscle energy is stored released all at once when shot. Although you have the muscle to do the work you can't throw an arrow at 100-150fps.
A blank charge or a charge behind a paper wad will produce the same energy, but the paper will not reach the same velocity.
Inertia is basic to mass. Friction is not a part of inertia but fuctions the same.
My physics class seems to have defined calorie- heat- energy a little different then yours.
 
I would also point out that the calories or ergs, joules, foot pounds or watts in a given sample gun powder is the same no matter if its one, two, three, or four f. or cannon powder for that matter. Smaller grains mean the energy can be released faster, not that there is more of it. If you eat 10 grams of honey or table sugar you will get a quick release of fourty calories. if you eat ten grams of pasta or oatmeal there will be a delay in how fast that energy becomes avalible to you, but you still get fourty calories.
When a ball leaves a bore with fifteen hundred foot pounds of energy the gun is exposed to fifteen hundred food pounds of energy in the opposite direction. You don't get a hole in your shoulder because the energy gets absorbed by the inertial of the gun, and the muscle in your arms and the size of the butt plate. The energy remains the same.
All sorts of factors go in to moving the energy of the powder in to the ball. Too lose enegy escapes around the ball. Too slick, is the same as too light, the pressure wave never gets as high. The energy is the same, but it doesn't get transferred to the ball, its wasted.
 
When you fire your rifle it goes bang almost as though it all went off at once.

Actually black powder , and I assume the substitutes, go off progressively. It begins, it builds and then finally all the powder is consumed..

With too slick a patch lube, the ball begins to move as soon as the powder begins to burn, As the pressure grows the ball continues to move and is quite possibly gone before the powder has done its thing.

As a result a part of the power is wasted as it is expended after the ball is down range.

By using a less slick lubrication there is a nanosecond of resistance which allows for a greater pressure build up before the ball begins to move. and you get a larger part of the powder's power behind the ball.

Billinpatiis's pea shooter example is a very good example.

We used to roll up a paper around a pencil, add a saliva soaked wad of paper, and fire it across the classroom. and by quickly unrolling the paper there was suddenly no evidence of your paper "weapon". An innocent facial expression was an added accessory.

Using a too slick patch lube is equivalent to not using enough powder.

Thank you for the reminiscence. I haven't thought of the spit ball wars of the .40's in a long time.

Dutch
 
I always thought that the projectile's inertia due to it's weight caused the initial pressure "spike". Don't see where the "slickness" of the lube is a major factor.

My experience w/ shooting lubed PRBs in a clean bbl or a fouled bbl didn't cause a shift in the POI....and whether the bbl is clean or fouled is a big difference in lubricity.....Fred
 
flehto said:
I always thought that the projectile's inertia due to it's weight caused the initial pressure "spike". Don't see where the "slickness" of the lube is a major factor.
I agree, Fred. It has always seemed to me that those who subscribe to the "too slick" idea greatly underestimate the effect of inertia. The amount of inertia depends on the speed with which the force is applied, and at gunpowder speeds it's very high. Look at these balls, massively deformed from the split-second application of force.



The two balls were touching at ignition, why didn't that front ball just move along with the rear one? Inertia.

As an illustration, glue a roundball to a string and suspend it. If you push it slowly with your hand, it moves without restraint, because resistance to its movement is zero. Now whack it as hard a you can with a stick. Inertia is high, it resists movement so much that you will find a large flat spot where the bat contacted it. Why? The only resistance to movement was inertia, and it was significant. The too-slick idea will not work if that is factored in, it seems to me.

Spence
 
flehto said:
I always thought that the projectile's inertia due to it's weight caused the initial pressure "spike". Don't see where the "slickness" of the lube is a major factor.
Slickness isn't really.....A lubes ability to create a seal and prevent blow-by, is.
liquid lubes do a much better job at sealing IMO.....They are also uncompressible compared to creamy type lubes that often have a large amount of air in them.
 
Don't confuse foot pounds of energy with force. The foot pounds equation places a premium on velocity.

For example; a 1 pound object moving at 100 fps has the same amount of force as a 100 pound object moving at 1 fps, but the 1 pound object will have more foot pounds of energy.

By the same token, a gas operated semi auto has nearly the same free recoil as a fixed breech gun, but the force is spread out longer, so free recoil feels less.

You burn just about the same amount of calories walking 100 yards as you do in sprinting it.
 
Yada, Yada, Yada,...What about the factors that determine the amount of force? That's what everyone is ignoring.....Force is not a constant, even if you use the same amount of powder the force generated can be affected by multiple variables.
 
You seem to be thinking there are different forms of energy. There is not, there is gust energy, one side of a coin. The other side is mass. We can play with mass and make different things. Hydrogen or lead, but we just have mass. We can use energy in different ways but we just have energy.
I tried to stay interested in my math classes but it wernt no good. However I remember that basic rule that things that are equal to the same thing are equal to each other.caliries can be converted to BTU, and that can be converted to julals ant that to ergs and that to watt seconds and that to foot pounds and that to horse power. Calories can easily be converted to horse power or foot pounds.
You can take butter at nine calories per gram, burn it in a boiler filled with water run a steam turbin turning a generator driving a trip hammer.
Calories remains an easy way of mesuring energy potential in small amounts. A lead ball has calories but it's hard to get them out unless we use a reactor. We can however liberate the energy in the powder to move the ball, useing the ball to work down range. A boxer uses calories to throw a punch, that can strike with the force of a ball. We can use calories to throw a ball with the force of a punch. Since the punch is disioated on the size of the fist and the ball is concentrated in about an half inch point more damage is done by the ball, but it's still calories or joules converted to foot pounds.
 
Ok nerds, I got a plan!

Hows about just shuttin up and shooting? :rotf:

I for one could care less about such and such force,energy or what ever you call it.

I just shot less than an 1 1/2" group at 100 yards with my FLINTLOCK today and can not wipe the smile off my face.

All that matters to the hunter is consistent first shot accuracy, the ability to reload a second or third shot and know where those shots go on a fouled bore.

I'd say its not rocket science, but in this case, it is for some. :doh:
 
FML said:
I for one could care less about such and such force,energy or what ever you call it.
On viable option for you is to stay out of the conversation and leave it to those who do care. You don't even have to read it, and everyone will be happy. :grin:

Spence
 
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