Patched Ball accuracy @ 100yds

[galamb]

That would be the "aim point" if your accuracy is 2-3" at 100 yards - outside of that aim point you would be in danger of missing the vital area if your shot varied that 2 or 3 inches high, low, left or right.

My point was, doesn't the blade of your sight cover that 2 inch "spot" which must exactly aim at.

If you have "no deviation" then yes you are looking at an 8" kill zone - but if your shot varies up to 2 or 3" from point of aim, you must aim at the center or you have a good chance of missing the zone you are after.

On a deer you only have 8" to play with. So from dead center of the (mass) you only have 4" in any direction - with accuracy of only 3" say, that means you AIM can't vary more than 1" from the exact center point because you have to allow for the "error".

Draw an 8" circle and aim for the top and you would hit "way high" if your 3" (grouping) went high with that particular shot.

So I stand by that circle. If you can't aim accurately at that, unless you pull all your balls through the same hole at 100 yards, then you are not accurate enough - where you aim and where, with variance, you hit, are two different things.

 

[George]

... I can get typically about 2" or less group size @50 from the bench. but at 100yards, I was getting 6-8" groups on the same load the first 5 balls.

To the board:

There is an aspect of this question which it seems to me is important we understand. It's a mathematical thing, a thing of geometry, you don't even have to fire a shot to understand it.

If you extend the trajectories of those balls which made the 2" group at 50 yards, they would make a 4" group at 100 yards.

So, all other considerations aside, if the best you can shoot at 50 yards is 2", then the best you can shoot at 100 yards will be 4". If you shoot a 6" group at 100 yards, then your accuracy didn't fall apart as much as you might think.

Spence

 

[S.Kenton]

Galamb, I understand where your coming from, however, if your shooting 100yrds and aiming for that small kill zone on your example, then IF you hit 4-6 inches in any direction it should still be lethal.

 

[galamb]

That was my point. You have to be able to "see" and "aim" at that small circle to allow for for the variables.

My eyes are not good enough anymore, with open sights, that I feel comfortable trying to pick out that "little circle" at 100 yards.

If you can see it and practice enough to hit it then by all means, take the shot - just not something I would be willing to try.

 

[larry wv]

What about the Heart? Also a liver in there. Pretty good size kill zone. Larry

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Most barrels are capable of 4 inch 100 yd groups but crappy sights destroy accuracy. Very fine target sights or peep sights are necessary to do better with most barrels at 100 yards. Even my old 45 H&A underhammer will keep five shot groups under a half dollar at 100 yds, but it has an extra long barrel and good Lyman aperture sights front and rear. The best open sights for target work are like those found on the 1884 trapdoor with a fine front blade and the Buffington rear sight. Most front sights on muzzle loaders are far too wide. And that dumb butt ball on top the TC Hawken sight is about useless. I know many who improved their accuracy by filing the ball off the top and lowering the rear sight.

 

[Okie Hog]

My personal limit on shooting deer with unscoped muzzleloaders is 75 yards regardless of bullet used. Might try 100 yards if there were no wind and there was a good rest and good light.

My TC New Englander .50 and .54 guns are good patched round ball shooters. i have no problem busting three out of five clay pidgeons placed on the berm 78 yards away: But refuse to push the envelope.

 

[tenngun]

In a .54 with 42/1 inch barrel I was able to hold 3 inch groups and at times less at 100 yards with v-buckhorn and silver blade . I was shootng .526 in .15 patch with lard over 70 grains g-o 3f. That was about 30 years ago. Now 6 inch is more my style as v notch and silver blade just dont stand out as well. Though in the past 30 years I never shot a deer at over 50, most around 25 yards or less. The guns I own can out shoot me, "I caint hit what I caint see.

 

[dave524]

3" above to 3" below, That is what I would call a 6 inch grouping. 3 inch grouping would never be more than 1 1/2 " from the point of aim if you hold perfect.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Bench guns ( 20 lbs.+ ) with fine peep sights can keep 1" groups all day.
Regular off hand type muzzleloading rifles are VERY lucky to get 4" groups at one hundred yards.
Typical v notch rear sights, with poor blade front sights will never give 1" groups except in the expert hands of a remarkable shooter.
The old Numrich underhammer with the loli pop rear peep, and a Lyman front aperture sight were the exception.
Fred (Old Ford )

 

[ccmountainman]

my reply is to the original topic not just any one individual
I'm going to chime in here, for what it's worth with a slightly different aspect.
1. pick a powder and stay with it (BP, pyro, 777, etc) eliminate the dupe loads that have different burn rates.

2.do you have fast or slow twist rate. Use the appropriate projectile for that twist rate.
1:48 is supposedly a one fits all, but not always.
Sometimes a ball is better sometimes conical sometimes neither.

3.What load are you aiming for? Target, competition, general or hunting?

4. somebody's remarks about open sights not very good at 100 + yards. Bull!! Depends on the shooter and your eye sight.
Can't speak for Army, Navy and Air Force. But Marines to qualify every year it is with open sites, 100, 200, 300 yards / meters. Yes it is a more modern rifle, but it still comes down to the shooter.

5. We were taught a slightly different method for sighting in than most. Works for us. Realizing we are aiming at a man.

6. if you are loading for hunting big game (pronghorn, deer, elk) realize that the kill zone (typically behind the front left shoulder) on any of these is 12 inches diameter and less.
So if you are consistently within 6 inches of point of aim. should drop your game.
After you are consistently on paper in the black at 50yd, move to 100. when you are consistent there substitute a steel plate suspended in air at 100.
Make it 12" diameter. When you can consistently hit it
you're ready. Drop to an 8 inch.

Realize if you are dead center left to right at 50.
then you should only vary vertically at 100.
But a L / R off center will expand exponentially as the range increases. Make sure it is NOT you before adjusting the sights.

Also it takes more energy to carry the slug out to 100 yd than it does at 50. So you can expect a more of a drop. So your powder load will have to be increased slightly. But don't go over the max load recommendation.

 

[dav-az]

Hey mountain man don't you mean USMC rifle qualification at 200, 300 and 500 yards/meters?

 

[mooman76]

Hey mountain man don't you mean USMC rifle qualification at 200, 300 and 500 yards/meters?

That's what I thought but I didn't know if they changed.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Right. The trans sonic transition also affects accuracy. That is, the air flow changes and flows differently at sub sound velocities than at supersonic. So if a bullet goes subsonic with 30 meters to go to the target on 1 round, 50 meters to go on the next, and then 10 meters to go on the third, you're going to get a different ballistic coefficient for the 3 shots over the flight path.

(This assumes an identical hold each time.) But the other thing affecting accuracy is the coincidence of the harmonic vibration patterns of the barrel for the different velocities.) That's why .22 target shooters usually shoot subsonic (1080 fps) ammo at 50 meters, or out to 200. (And the harmonic coincidence and variation is less out of a short stiff barrel than it is out of a long skinny whippy one, but that is a different discussion.) They want the bullet to be subsonic for the entire flight, and have a more consistent BC. The wind can blow a .22 around quite a bit, just as it can a PRB. So, if you are shooting at longer distances, it will be tough to keep the ball supersonic the whole time. That's why often the best load for 50 yards is not necessarily the best load for 100 yards, or 200 yards certainly.

 

[don hepler]

I've been hunting deer for over 40 years, and have had great success. But, even with modern scoped rifles, I try to stay within 100 to 150 yards, if I have a good rest. Off hand shots, within 50 yards, or so. However, open sighted flintlock rifle, 50-60 with a good rest, would be my limit.

I have never fired my flintlock rifle, at 100 or more yards. It would be fun, for target or gong, but maybe it's better that I don't know. That way I won't be tempted.

 

[Walks with fire]

I like using a full sized paper plate for 100 yard shooting. The bead covers most of the plate with a couple of inches of white showing around the bead. It's easier to center the bead for me.

My bead covers the target now instead of my old 6 o'clock method of sighting. Not as good for fine shooting but quicker to just paste the bead in deer hunting. 100 yards is a long open sight shot for me at nearly 60 years of age. I can still shoot 3" groups from a bench though with 80-90 grains of powder. I don't think I would try an offhand shot at a deer at 100 yards; never have had to yet; I find a rest of don't shoot.

 

[hanshi]

Interesting though overly technical thread, we have here. What ever happened to "shoot gun, hit deer, deer falls"?

 

[tenngun]

:rotf:

 

[azmntman]

I don't think I would try an offhand shot at a deer at 100 yards; never have had to yet; I find a rest of don't shoot.

:thumbsup: When stillhunting I am always looking for and staying near a tree to get a hand steady for a shot. I practice off the car door or a bench mostly so "need" a rest much past 60 yds. Have shot several deer/elk off hand moving but 50 yds or less.

IMHO a deers vitals are 8" and an elks about 14" A liver shot elk once ran only 80 yds and bleed hard. A heart shot elk once went near 100? Depends on the animal, its will to live and yer hunting ability. They watching you they run further. I once shot a cow at 50 yds. She never looked up and kept feeding. After spilling half a load and getting a ball down for the second shot she fell over as I was capping. I believe had she seen me first she would have run off a bit. :idunno: just my thoughts ( and ya...no clue why the big boom and smoke didnt make her at least look up but she didnt! :shocked2: )

 

[Zonie]

More than a few hunters, when hunting in areas where trees are scarce carry a lightweight walking stick with them.

Not only are these handy to aid walking thru rough areas but they serve very nicely as a support for the gun when taking long shots on game.

Properly used, a walking stick supporting the gun is far more steady than shooting offhand.

Using one of these walking sticks for accurate long range shooting does require some practice so anyone who is thinking of trying it should learn how to grab the stick and use that hand to support the forearm of the gun.

Besides, practicing using these at a shooting range will give the modern gun shooters one more reason to suspect that we've lost our marbles. :thumbsup: