Patched Round Ball accuracy in a 1:48 barrel?

[Regulis7]

I have a CVA Bobcat .50 and quiet frankly am a bit frustrated shooting PRB's right now. The rifle has the 1:48 twist rifling so I know its not a dedicated PRB barrel.

So far I have been using Pyrodex RS with Hornady .490 RB's, TC's pre lubed .015 patches, unwashed pillow ticking that mics out at .018, washed muslin cloth that mics to .014 using Bore Butter lube, nothing seems to be consistant at all.

My loads have ranged from 60gr to 80gr using increments of 5gr increases after each 3rd shot. The muslin cloth and the TC patches all showed signs of cut patches or burn thru but loading was always smooth and easy. The pillow ticking patches are tight, may get two shots between bore swabs, if I am lucky, but no cuts or burn thrus.

I washed some of the ticking cloth and it expanded to .021-.022 in size, didnt try to load these patches because I dont wanna hang a ball down the barrel.

Using the unwashed ticking, Bore Butter and 60-65gr RS the rifle shoots fairly decent at 35 and 50 yards, but at 100 yards just hitting the target paper is exciting. The heavier loads have the same results at 100 but provide poor accuracy at the closer ranges.

Anyone have any other suggestions on finding a combination for PRB shooting in the gun, something I may be missing or not tried yet? Starting to think that this gun will never shoot PRB's with any degree of consistancy, just dont have the cash right now to upgrade to a GPR or Mountain Rifle.

Regulis7

 

[cayugad]

Regulis7 .. I have a .54 caliber CVA Mountian Stalker which was Bass Pro's answer to selling the Bobcat under a different name I think. I can find no difference between the two.

I had a ruff time finding a load also. But once I found it, the rifle turned sweet. I was shooting Triple Se7en FFg and I would use a wonderwad between the homecut pillow tick patch which I coated with moose milk. Then homecast round ball. The wonderwad kept the triple se7en from burning the patch all up. I was even running the rifle at 85 grains of the stuff. That would equal out to about 100 grains of Goex or Pyrodex if the 15% conversion holds true. The recoil with this load is brutal. The down range power is fantastic.

I also found tears and such with the patches so even though the rifle was new, I lapped the barrel with valve grinding compound. I gave it 100 strokes. Many people more experienced them I am in this business will tell you not to do this. They might be, and probably are right. All I know is after the lapping the rifle calmed right down and the groups got a lot tighter. Tight enough in fact to take three deer with it and the round balls. The furthest being 60 yards, and after getting hit, never took a step.

So what I would suggest is up the powder charge even a little more and see what happens. If the accuracy is still bad, then lower it back to a comfortable level. Wonderwads might also help protect your patches. I bought them on line, but now I make my own at home with a hollow hole punch.

If you have ruff spots in the barrel causing the patches to tear, get yourself some REAL conicals, lube them up and go out and shoot off about 50 of them. They might knock some of the burrs of the inside of the barrel and you might even find a real accurate shooting projectile there. My Stalker shoots the 300 grain REALs excellent and does a good job with the 380 grains although better with the lighter of the two.

Hope this helped...

 

Step 1) Aways wash the ticking. Period. WASH IT. There are no shortcuts. Get the sizing out!
Step 2) SWAB the barrel between shots to eliminate variables in bore condition. Swab at least till you find a load that works.
Step 3) Smooth your rough barrel as cayugad suggested.

Do that and report back. :thumbsup:

 

[rrgr40]

cayugad is right on the money, I like to use power-belt bullets to smooth a barrel because of the copper jacket. Have you tried teflon coated patches or just using a dry patch. I aways shoot a clean gun until optimum accuracy is attained, then I shoot it dirty to check second and subsequent shoot accuracy. Good Luck

 

[Regulis7]

Since I do not have a bore scope, nor do I have access to one, I have no idea how sharp the rifling is inside the bore.

The only conicals I have shot in this gun so far are 10 CVA 300gr Buckslayer mini's and two Cheap Shot 240gr sabots that imitate the performance of the XTP. The mini's I liked but the plastic sabot Cheap Shot scared the dickens outta me because they were so hard to load.

Next time I head out I will pick up some of the lighter weight Power Belts and shoot the box. This may just take some of the sharpness outta the rifling.

When I use the pillow ticking material I dont have a problem with patch cuts, just when using the thinner commercial patches or muslin cloth. Problem with the ticking is its a PITA to load after a shot or two, requiring a thorough bore swab. The washed ticking I have not tried because it swelled to .021-.022 after washing and I was afraid of hanging a ball down the bore over a live powder charge.

Regulis7

 

Regulis: Go back to my post and read the steps.
Don't worry about the washed ticking "swelling". It didn't really swell. It just fluffed and will compress when you load it. It can't get bigger than it was originally, not permanently.
And swab the thing twixt shots till ya figure out what works.
You're eliminating variables here and swabbing eliminates a lot of them.

 

Experimenting with the pillow ticking is probably heading in the right direction. Real easy loading may indicate too thin a patch and you will get burn thru in most any load (unless you use a wad betwixt powder and ball). I had the exact same problem as you with a 54 Uberti. It has a 1-48 and I was about to trade it off when I ordered Dutch Schoulz's "System" for ML shooting. I was using prelubed Wonder patches but changed to a thicker pillow ticking and my own lube recipe. I still have to wipe every two or three shots or it's tough to seat the ball, but the accuracy is phenomenal. This rifle will now regularly shoot one ragged hole at 50 yds and under 2 inches at 100. Prior to this, it would not hit paper at 100.

It likes 85 gr of FFFg and a .530 ball with .018 cloth. BTW, I have also fired pillow ticking without washing with no ill effects. The only thing I noticed is the cloth's ability to absorb liquid quickly. In other words, unwashed cloth will shed water a bit while the washed stuff soaks it immediately. I don't believe in sacred cows so try shooting your ticking without washing and wipe between every shot. Be consistent and patient - you may discover that you'll have a target load and a hunting load with different accuracy expectations.

 

[JerryToth]

Hi Regulis 7;

Here is the web address for Dutch Schoultz.

http://www.mindspring.com/~dr5x/

You and thousands of other guys don't and won't believe it, but he puts it "all together" so it makes sense.

It's the best $15 any frontstuffer shooter will ever spend.

Go for it, you'll thank yourself later.

And yes, a 1:48 can be made to shoot as good as your eyes can see the sights and you can hold the rifle!

Regards,

Jerry.

 

[flaming canvas]

Have you tried a .495 ball? :results:

 

[roundball]

And yes, a 1:48 can be made to shoot as good as your eyes can see the sights and you can hold the rifle!

:agree:
Thank you...my sentiments completely
:redthumb:

 

[jtmattison]

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=10587&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=186&fpart=1

Here's my post on RB with a 1:48 Trade Rifle.
I've since switched to GOEX instead of Pyrodex but you can see a 1:48 can shoot RB.

Huntin

 

[NoJacketRequired]

Your 1:48 barrel should be able to shoot PRB - as many on this board will attest. My Traditions caplock Hawken will shoot cloverleaves at 50 metres with the right load. My T/C Renegade, on the other hand, won't shoot PRB very well. At least it didn't, until I let it get really dirty and then loaded a huge charge (95 grains Triple 7). Then it started to produce groups of around 2" at 50m. So like they say, shoot it, a lot. Experiment with it. You'll eventually find the magic recipe. All it takes is some patience and a bunch of money for loading supplies! :haha:

One thing I will caution you about... Your concern about hard loading is a very real one. If the ball's really hard to load you might not get it properly seated atop the powder charge. Lighting it off in this condition could prove harmful or even fatal to the shoooter, so please do continue loading with extreme caution. Yup, that's why I really am not too keen on sabots - they're just too much work to slide down the barrel. Soft lead is just so much easier.

If you're looking for a conical, you will probably want to try something that's reasonably short. I've had good success with PRBullets (www.prbullets.com) 300 grain Keith-nose hollow point. Three shot groups under an inch at 50m are common using 85 grains of Triple 7.

 

[Regulis7]

Went to the range today with my Bobcat, some powerbelts and PRB setup.

Fired the box of 12 powerbelts and was amazed at how accurate they were. At 50 I was keeping 3 shots inside the 3" circle, at 100 they were slightly low but within a 4" circle. Anyway, I cleaned the rifle with some CVA BP solvent and dried the bore.

Loaded up with my now Washed and pre cut pillow ticking, using Natural 1000 Bore Butter for lube and Pyro RS for powder. First shot at 50 was center of target but 4" right. Swabbed bore with dry patch, reload exactlly same and next shot was 6" low from center. Swab bore, reload and watch as the hole was high right.

Swab bore, change powder volume and shoot 3 more shots with swabs between shots. I did this for 2.5 hrs, working my way up from 50gr to 85gr. Changed patch materails to a denim that mics out at .017, started shooting and the groups were stringing right in a verticle pattern. Checked patches and everyone was cut/shredded/burned.

When comparing my PRB targets with the Powerbelt target, and several others from the CVA Buckslayer mini's I am just about sure this rifle has a preference for conicals. too bad because I like shooting the PRB's and conicals cost way more than round ball.

Well, just more reason to keep saving for the GPR and 1-66" barrel.

Regulis7

 

[ndbilly]

Went to the range today with my Bobcat, some powerbelts and PRB setup.

Fired the box of 12 powerbelts and was amazed at how accurate they were. At 50 I was keeping 3 shots inside the 3" circle, at 100 they were slightly low but within a 4" circle. Anyway, I cleaned the rifle with some CVA BP solvent and dried the bore.

Loaded up with my now Washed and pre cut pillow ticking, using Natural 1000 Bore Butter for lube and Pyro RS for powder. First shot at 50 was center of target but 4" right. Swabbed bore with dry patch, reload exactlly same and next shot was 6" low from center. Swab bore, reload and watch as the hole was high right.

Swab bore, change powder volume and shoot 3 more shots with swabs between shots. I did this for 2.5 hrs, working my way up from 50gr to 85gr. Changed patch materails to a denim that mics out at .017, started shooting and the groups were stringing right in a verticle pattern. Checked patches and everyone was cut/shredded/burned.

When comparing my PRB targets with the Powerbelt target, and several others from the CVA Buckslayer mini's I am just about sure this rifle has a preference for conicals. too bad because I like shooting the PRB's and conicals cost way more than round ball.

Well, just more reason to keep saving for the GPR and 1-66" barrel.

Regulis7

Boy does that sound like a session or two I've had with my flinchlocks over the years. My sympathies...

 

[JerryToth]

Hi again Regulis 7;

I'll try one more time to get your attention, and then I'll quit...

First, 3" groups at 50 aren't really very accurate. It's actually kinda mediocre. If you get just about any rifle and find the correct RB load/patch/lube combination for it, you can get better than 3" at 50. Don't get mad at me, that's just the truth of it.

Second, you did try valiantly for 2.5 hours to find the "magic" combination. However, even after you found the best patch, (the one that mic'ed at .017), when you "Checked patches and everyone was cut/shredded/burned", you need to know that something is still dramatically less than correct.

Third, you may be "just about sure this rifle has a preference for conicals", but you're probably wrong.

Again, there is a specific way to eliminate the variables in shooting PRB. You're trying very hard, and that is admirable. I tried for several years before I figured it out. I only figured it out by reading Dutch Shoultz's Blackpowder Accuracy System.

I'll quit typing now. I'm sounding cranky and mean. I'm not.

If you can't bring yourself to spend $15 for the Dutch Schoultz system information, go ahead and save for the GPR 1 in 66. Sadly, although the 1 in 66 is more forgiving, you will still probably not get the absolute best that it would be able to give you without fully understanding the variables.

Did you spend more on one box of those fancy bullets than $15?

My apologies if I sound too harsh. It's only because I care too much!

Regards,

Jerry.

 

[roundball]

I also agree...before any judgements can be made regarding best powder charges, bullet types/weights, and accuracy decisions, the basics of patch integrity, bore consistency from shot to shot, lube, etc have to be figured out one at a time...for example, based upon your text, you shouldn't be worrying about anything else until you get the patch issue fixed.
Either by using thicker stronger patches, or better lube, or a powder that may not be so hot, or an overpowder wad, etc, etc.

For example, I use oxyoke wonderwads and strong .018" prelubed pillow ticking patches with stout hunting loads (90grns Goex FFFg) and can pick the patches up off the ground and reuse them for the next shot thay look that new...not a story or exaggeration, I've literally done it.
You have to get to that point before you can draw any final conclusions about accuracy...and when you fix the patch issue, I'll wager you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Assuming it's a modern barrel built to typical 1:48" specs, 50yd groups of at least cloverleaf size should easily be attainable with full power hunting loads, and even better with lighter target loads