Pedersoli Bess - flash, no boom

[Rifleman1776]

Fill the pan, and don't use 4Fg. Use the same size powder that you use in your main charge, and fill the pan. Photos of the pan to touch hole position would help, but until then, fill the pan with 2Fg.

LD

It is wasteful and unnecessary to fill a pan with primer. And, the less primer you use the faster the ignition.
This particular BB in question has it's own set of problems.
Edit: 4Fg is the accepted primer size. Either 2 or 3 Fg will work however. 4Fg is more reliable. I'll not touch on the subject about faster or not. But, definitely more reliable.

 

[Grenadier1758]

You want to use the least ammount of powder that gives you the best ignition. The Bess has a very large pan and for military use it was meant to be filled with the same powder as the main charge. Wasteful of powder, yes, but in terms of volley fire they wanted the guns to fire reliably.

When you get back in April, toss correctness aside until you get the gun to fire. Since the pan is fired reliably, the next step is to make sure the heat has a path to the charge. So, before any powder is loaded, make sure the path to the powder is clear of any moisture and open. Get some stiff bristled pipe cleaners to wipe the touch hole. Make sure that the flash channel is clean and dry. Wipe the bore with a dry patch and clean the touch hole again. Try to note how far the breech face is behind the touch hole. Could your ball be far enough back to block the touch hole? Probably not, but check anyway. After you have loaded the powder, use the vent pick to make sure that powder can be felt.

Stay safe and get back. We want to know if your Bess is shooting and is reliable.

When my Bess doesn't go off, its usually the dull flint or fouling that has blocked the touch hole.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Ah yes, all other things being equal, but the large pan on the Bess, plus an improperly angled touch hole, can give one good "flash" results, but fail to fire the piece, when using smaller than full pan priming. One could load the pan 1/3 - 1/2 with 4Fg (or larger) with a sufficient gap, to have problems igniting the main charge..., even without an improperly angled touch hole... thus plenty of flash-in-the-pan, and no discharge. Hence the admonition, use larger powder, fill the pan.

It should be "unnecessary" to use 4Fg EVER on a Bess to get ignition. :wink:

Forgive me for not being more detailed in my reply...

I have seen Pedersoli touch holes drilled below the level of the pan, and I have seen them drilled too far back, engaging the side of the breech plug. What they did at the factory was obvious when I pulled the breech plug..., they had removed the breech plug, filed it a tiny bit to provide a "passage" from the touch hole to the breech face, and replaced the plug.

The Bess I observed had similar symptoms to what is described in this thread, but not exact. The larger flash from the full pan provided a larger amount of flame for a split second longer with slower (larger)powder (which was my SWAG as to why only a full pan worked, though not reliably) and why it was suggested here.

The problem with a funky breech plug to touch hole situation, is the factory "correction" can be deceptive..., as a common vent prick is often made of flexible steel, like a modern sewing needle or pin, and when inserted will then flex on the angled portion of the modified breech plug, thus the shooter observes the vent prick going into the musket, going deep, feels the powder crunch, and not realizing the gap and deviated path the flash must make to get to the main charge.

Scrape the breech face all that you want in such a situation, you won't get carbon out of that tiny filed portion as it's below the breech face...IF that is what has happened in this case. Prick and clean the touch hole too..., the opening may still be rather small, and at the factory when they test fire the piece..., they used a full pan, and it went boom, so passed and was sold (granted, conjecture on my part)

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

was meant to be filled

I really question that. Same powder, yes. But "filled"?
Like any flint firearm I have used I put only a small line of primer at the bottom of the pan on my BB. Ignition was completely reliable, always.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Loading from a cartridge is not as precise as using a priming flask. I don't recommend priming before loading powder and ball. When shooting a ball, always prime after the ball is seated and thd muzzle is pointing in a safe direction. One line of priming powder should be sufficient to set off the main charge. Some guns may require more powder as Dave described.

Prime your musket for best performance.

 

[Chowmif16]

thanks for all the good discussion. I will definitely post when I figure out what the problem/solution is.
I'm beginning to lean towards the idea that the breech plug is right up to or covering part of the touch hole, and a channel is drilled or filed in the face of the breech plug. If my memory serves correct from cleaning, that is what I see. It is certainly what I see on my Pedersoli 1805 Harper's Ferry model.
There was a comment mentioning that at least I get consistent ignition of the priming charge. That not exactly true, but I didn't want to muddy the discussion up and end up with two different threads. So, to prevent confusion, I presented it as "when the priming charge actually goes off, I still don't get reliable main charge ignition".
Not intending to start a new thread, as I'm pretty sure I can solve the priming ignition problem with a bit of experimentation.
The touch hole does look to be in the right place. Centered on the flash pan and about level with the top of the pan (again, from memory).

Cheers,
Chowmi

 

[Chowmif16]

Well,
I'm finally back from Afghanistan and have had some time to work with the Pedersoli Bess.
Several folks had asked me to post on my progress, so here it is.
I've had it out twice and had pretty good luck.
I switched to 3F in the priming pan, and frankly just used a lot of it. I am getting consistent ignition, albeit I'm pretty sure that it is not particularly fast. I'm guessing that this is due to the volume of powder I'm using in the pan. I am nearly filling the huge pan with powder.
I absolutely love shooting this gun, and am now happy that it is consistent. I'm thinking to slowly reduce the pan charge until I start to see inconsistent ignition and then go back up a bit.
The next step will be to lighten the trigger pull. It is such a hard pull that my hand gets sore after sustained shooting. Anyone have any hints towards reducing the trigger pull?
Cheers,
Chowmi

 

[pargent]

First good to see you back safe and well :hatsoff: You seem to be on the right track just keep on with what you last posted, NB they do like a fairly large pan full, some carefull smoothing of the sear will help but if you haven't done this before get a gunsmith to do the job bear in mind that this is a copy of a military lock so a heavy trigger pull is going to be the norm compared to a fine rifle . :thumbsup:

 

[Chowmif16]

1602Phil
Thanks for the welcome back!
I don't think I'm happy to work on the sear, so may find a local gunsmith who can do it.
I expected a heavy trigger pull on the military musket, but this is all that and a bit more.
I haven't measured it, but I might buy a pull gauge just to see how much this one is. I've never seen anything like it before..
Cheers,
Chowmi

 

[Many Klatch]

The trigger pull on a new Bess is always terrible. It takes a lot of fiddling with the lock before it can get down to where it is really usable. The nice thing a Pedersoli Bess lock is that parts are available, so if you mess up you can start over again. Two items that lead to stiff trigger pull are the sear spring and the sear/tumbler interface.

You need to get some fine sharpening stones to work on the sear/tumbler. You will also need a set of gunsmith screw drivers and a lot of patience. The instructions are simple. Take the lock apart, remove a small bit of metal, reassemble the lock, see if that was enough, repeat as necessary. Just keep the nose of the sear square as you work on it. You will probably wind up removing metal from both the sear and the tumbler.

Don't mess with the sear spring until you decide that that is the only thing left to work on.

You can expect this to take quite a long time and you will be an expert on taking the lock apart by the time you get done.

Many Klatch

 

[Rifleman1776]

What has been said about trigger pull is correct. It is supposed to be hard. You can lighten. But, if you intened to participate with certain reenactment groups they may test the pull to make sure you are 'authentic'. If that is not a concern lighten up to satisfy your likes.
I would start with the ignition problem by getting a good bore light. The little thing sold by O'Reilly automotive is great. I have one and love it. About $10.00. Put on a string and lower into the bore and try to determine what is happening down there. Look into the touchhole with the light at the bottom. Methinks your original notion the breechplug is interfering is my thought as well. A simple pass with a drill bit might put you in business.

 

[Britsmoothy]

The trigger pull on a new Bess is always terrible. It takes a lot of fiddling with the lock before it can get down to where it is really usable. The nice thing a Pedersoli Bess lock is that parts are available, so if you mess up you can start over again. Two items that lead to stiff trigger pull are the sear spring and the sear/tumbler interface.

You need to get some fine sharpening stones to work on the sear/tumbler. You will also need a set of gunsmith screw drivers and a lot of patience. The instructions are simple. Take the lock apart, remove a small bit of metal, reassemble the lock, see if that was enough, repeat as necessary. Just keep the nose of the sear square as you work on it. You will probably wind up removing metal from both the sear and the tumbler.

Don't mess with the sear spring until you decide that that is the only thing left to work on.

You can expect this to take quite a long time and you will be an expert on taking the lock apart by the time you get done.

Many Klatch

Spot on :thumbsup:

See if you can see the hammer/flint cock actually moving back a tiny tiny amount just before it is released!
If so the sear and tumbler are going through a camming action and the trigger is actually working against the main spring.Manufacturers seem to do this today to be sure of a trigger that never lets go!

The angle of incidence between the tumbler and sear is too acute. If you do look you should be able to see what I mean.

Brits.

 

[Billnpatti]

If you are not using black powder, that would be your problem. Substitutes simply do not work in a flintlock. On the other hand, if you are using real black powder, your problem lies elsewhere. You have stated that your touch hole is properly located and you have opened it up. It should be approximately 1/16 inch in diameter. So, from what you have said, you have no problem with the function of your lock and your touch hole has been opened up. That removes all of the external parts from the problem. Next, I would determine if your flash channel is obstructed. If you have not been cleaning with a thorough flushing with soapy water, obstruction of your flash channel could be your problem. If you carefully examine the flash channel and it is open and clean, the next thing to look at would be your powder charge. It must be real black powder. Substitutes will not work in a flintlock. Let's assume that you are using real black powder. Perhaps your main charge is ruined by oil or moisture. If that is the case, remove your load, clean and dry your bore, charge your pan with about 5 grains of 4f (or whatever black powder you choose to use in your pan)fire off your pan charge to remove any oil or moisture from your flash channel and then reload with a proper load of 2f black powder and you will find that your gun will fire with each shot.

 

[MacRob46]

Rather than wasting a bunch of powder reducing your priming charge, start with a small amount and work up. You will be surprised at how little is needed to get consistent ignition. A pan full of powder is nearly always going to cause slow ignition since the priming has to burn down a bit before anything goes into the touch hole. I once saw an antique arms expert firing an 1816 musket as a demonstration. He put so much powder in the pan that he could barely close the frizzen. His ignition went something like "whishhhhhhhhhhhhhh - boom". He later remarked that the musket was not very accurate which was true based on the target he shot but in fact it was not the gun's fault, it was his for using so much priming. Good luck with your other problems. My Bess has always worked like a champ!

 

[Rifleman1776]

Good point. But he hasn't said what he is using. Chow... are you using real black powder?

 

[MacRob46]

He stated in one of his first posts that he is using BP. He also mentioned having several flashes in the pan before ignition. If he was using BP substitute he would have been getting NO flashes in the pan.

 

[Chowmif16]

Thanks again for all the replies.
Many, your answer has given me a boost of confidence to work on the lock, thank you.
I'm not concerned with re-enacting, so no issue there. I'd just like to make it a bit more comfortable to shoot.

I'm happy that I have consistent ignition now, and think I will try two different things to work on the speed of ignition:
1) slowly reduce the priming charge
2) pull the breech plug and check for obstructions just in case.

All in all, despite the above, I absolutely love shooting this gun. I had a bunch of friends shoot it this weekend and it never failed to get a huge reaction.

Cheers all,
Chowmi

 

[Many Klatch]

Due to the long hammer throw the Bess takes a bit longer than most flintlocks to go boom after you pull the trigger. That is normal and there isn't much you can do about it. If you are used to the almost instantaneous ignition of modern suppository guns then it will seem slow.

I don't pay much attention to how much powder is in the pan of my Bess. I prime from my main horn and it often fills to the top. It all seems to work fine for me. That big slow lock really throws a shower of sparks. Slow ignition in a Bess can be improved by enlarging the touch hole to 1/16" or even 3/32". My Bess has been shot a lot. The touch hole has enlarged to almost 1/8".

Shooting the Bess accurately requires a lot of follow through. Improving the trigger pull is important, so is doing something about the sights.

Try filing a small "reference" mark on top of the bayonet lug and one on the tang. That will really help your horizontal hold.

Many Klatch

 

[nit wit]

C:
Strictly muzzleloading here in Maine did my pedersoli bess lock, it's smooth and fairly light.
Nit Wit

 

[Rifleman1776]

pull the breech plug and check for obstructions just in case.

Pulling is not necessary. A good bore light will tell you all you need to know.
If you are determined to pull the breech, do realize on (some) of the Ped BBs the breech plug is tack welded in place. Mine is.