Pedersoli Patent Breech design

[Britsmoothy]

Pedersoli bess's and possibly other military reproductions do not have patent style breeches.
Their Indian trade gun does.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I wonder if the original poster is swabbing between shots or after a string of shots?

That was my first thought as well. Swabbing can help keep tight groups and a very consistent barrel condition - but it has to be done the right way.......

 

[springfield art]

I'm one of those shooters who does not like patent breeches at all. I cannot understand why they dominate the factory market when they, IMHO, offer no noticeable advantage nor a reason for them. But I have to say my two Pedersoli never gave me any problems at all.

Many times the modern manufacturing methods dictate why/how something is made. Doing something the best, old way often conflicts with financial considerations. I believe we're fortunate to even have companies like Pedersoli, etc., around at all in this modern world.

 

[springfield art]

Pedersoli bess's and possibly other military reproductions do not have patent style breeches.
Their Indian trade gun does.

I'd like to have a nice Trade Gun, but would want one of the ones more traditionally made or assembled, so that would leave out the Pedersoli. Thanks for the info.

 

[Snooterpup]

Hello All! jcs266 is right, it is a chambered breech very much like CVA but with a longer breech plug. I have one of the Pedersoli Hatfield rifles (same for Cabela's Blueridge or Pedersoli's Frontier rifle.) in .50 and the face of the breechplug is almost flat (very little coning) with a very narrow powder channel that was .218 in diameter. (see photos below.) This channel can easily get plugged with fouling causing ignition problems. I was never too keen on just how narrow the powder channel was so here are the before and after photos of my modificaton. You MUST first remove the liner or drum before attempting to remove the breech! This modification increased the powder channel to .326 diameter. (You must also shorten the liner or drum also.) Using a four jaw chuck in the old metal lathe, I drilled out the breech to the new diameter of .326. The hose clamp jig held the liner in place so it could be drilled to length at the same time. I tapered the new hole to funnel the powder charge into the channel easily. I think this improve ignition and allow a proper black powder brush in .32 caliber that will clean out this new chamber. I shudder to think what could happen if a modern .22 brush came apart in the old .218 diameter channel. I believe the Pedersoli military reproductions have a traditional breech and do not have this potential issue. Thanks to all, here are the photos... sorry about the duplicate photo.View attachment 73393View attachment 73393

 

[Rod Man]

So, Lyman Investarms Flint guns are a Chambered Breech Correct?

 

[Snooterpup]

Folks have asked about the Pedersoli breech. My Pedersoli is a chambered breech. Have a look at Zonie's drawing of a chambered breech. While this appears somewhat similar to Zonie's picture of a CVA they are not the same. I have heard the CVA's cannot be removed. I have no experience with Lyman or Investarms and cannot comment on those.

 

[Zonie]

CVA's breech can be removed but to do it the drum or plug with the vent in it has to come out first. After it is out, the breech plug at the rear can be unscrewed.

The problem is, when the breech is reassembled, the threaded side hole in the barrel must line up exactly with threaded hole in the breech plug. "Close" isn't good enough.

 

[Snooterpup]

CVA's breech can be removed but to do it the drum or plug with the vent in it has to come out first. After it is out, the breech plug at the rear can be unscrewed.

The problem is, when the breech is reassembled, the threaded side hole in the barrel must line up exactly with threaded hole in the breech plug. "Close" isn't good enough.

Very similar to my Pedersoli. Reassembly my be spot on as the liner must thread through the barrel and also through the breech plug. Make certain the witness marks line up exactly.

 

[Kansas Jake]

My Traditions flint 36 Shenandoah experiences the same problems the original poster noted. I use the thump on the off side or tapping the butt on the ground after loading powder to help it fire more reliably.

Snooterpup, I like your resolution, but most of us don't have the equipment to do modification.

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

Lots of good comments here guys, I use either mr flintlock lube or just spit on the patch when reloading. I dont swab between shots unless the fouling is causing loading issues. If i do swab i alsovsent a brass brush into breech to clear it.

I think alot of it is the buildup of crud on the breech face becoming damp with humidity and causing the powder to stick there rather than enter the breech chamber. As long as I pick the vent though i dont notice any delay in ignition so there isnt a large ammount of gunk buildup keeping the flash from traveling thru the breech to the powder.
a
Any idea what the capacity of the breech chamber is? I marked my range rod and there is only about 1/16" inch difference in ball depth with the chamber full vs empty.

Chris

Chris, measure with the small end of the RR, then put a jag on the end of the RR and measure again. And if the RR end doesn't go down the powder chute, get some thin steel or brass rod that WILL go down unto the chamber. I had on on a .36 that the chamber was about .20" in diameter.
If you can't get hold of a bore scope, go to the fishing section of a store and get some bobber lights. Activate one and drop it down the barrel and take a good look.

 

[mmb617]

On the first 2 or 3 shots of a shooting session when i pick the vent after loading i can feel the powder in the breech. After a few shots I notice when picking that the breech chamber is empty, not fouled or anything, just empty. When firingvwith the breech empty vs full i havent noticed any appreciable delay in lock time so the flash is still easily reaching the powder in the barrel.

My standard load is 50-60gr of 3f goex.

I have 4 Traditions rifles and to the best of my knowledge all have a patent breech design. I have noticed exactly what you are talking about in that the first couple shots I can easily feel the powder when I pick, but after a few shots the pick feels like it's just going into an empty space. I also don't notice any delay in ignition when this occurs. All my rifles are .50 caliber and loaded with 50 grains of powder.

I usually fire 20-32 shots from any one gun in a session and don't swab between shots at all. What I do notice is that as the shot count gets up over 20 I'll get an occasional flash in the pan with my normal 3f load. I've found that if I switch to using 4f as my charge after the first 20 shots or so the flash in the pan problem goes away. I always use 4f in the pan.

I don't want to get into an argument over the safety of using 4f as charge powder, I'm just offering up my observation of what's been working for me.

 

[Mina]

Contrary to hansi, I like patent breeches. I use them especially on the target pistols I build because a patent breech will give more uniform pressures which gives more uniform velocities which ultimately leads to higher possible scores. I have found that trickling the first few grains of the powder charge into the barrel before upending the measure to dump the bulk always fills the chamber and I have powder grains showing at the touch hole. a bump of the breech guarantees it. If the powder charge is dumped in bulk into the barrel it arrives at the breech in mass and cannot enter the breech chamber because of the bulk..

I have been reusing large plastic jugs of cold brewed coffee now for a few years. I rinse them and use an aluminum funnel and a plastic spoon to measure powdered instant coffee into those jugs. I noticed that if I trickled from the spoon, rather than dump each spoon full, the coffee doesn't get choked up in the hole, necessitating pokes with a pecan pic to clear the clog.

 

[Snooterpup]

Contrary to hansi, I like patent breeches. I use them especially on the target pistols I build because a patent breech will give more uniform pressures which gives more uniform velocities which ultimately leads to higher possible scores. I have found that trickling the first few grains of the powder charge into the barrel before upending the measure to dump the bulk always fills the chamber and I have powder grains showing at the touch hole. a bump of the breech guarantees it. If the powder charge is dumped in bulk into the barrel it arrives at the breech in mass and cannot enter the breech chamber because of the bulk..

A very good tip to improve ignition on these chambered breech systems. Every idea helps. Thanks!